091: Creating strong relationships and community with vulnerability and humility with Michelle Bowler

Jen Amos 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your co host, also veteran spouse and goldstar daughter Jen a most and I have my amazing co host with me active duty military spouse who I'm going to meet in person soon, as well as a mother and mental health advocate genuine Stroup genuine Welcome back.

Speaker 1 0:19

Hey, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. And also just soon meet in person.

Jen Amos 0:22

d ask you for starters, how's: 2021

Unknown Speaker 1:21

Wow,

Jen Amos 1:22

we just found out that my husband will be deploying this week. Wow, what else happened? Oh, there were a few things. Oh, we were supposed to move in July. And I got everything planned because the baby's due in July. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have a baby three weeks after we PCs, and I gotta have things planned. And then they decided that we're not moving in July. We're gonna move in December now. Which has its blessings, you know, for sure. But yeah, it's been a roller coaster so far. But there isn't another virus. So I'm counting my blessings. Right, right, let's just have one big virus, right. Like, that's it. And vaccinations are going out left and right. So handing him out like candy. So, you know, that's at least one less thing to worry about now that people are doing that. And you know, if there's anything out of COVID is that more people are washing their hands, which I appreciate. So, you know, let's again, like you said, Let's count our blessings. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Wow. Well, Michelle, that's a lot. So with that said, I have to ask you, how do you also, on top of that, run your blog and your podcast, the waiting warriors? How do I do it?

Unknown Speaker 2:37

I just kind

Jen Amos 2:38

of chuckle every time somebody asked me any sort of how do you you know, because I'm kind of get those a lot. I've been on social media for or three years now. So it's like, it's there's quite a presence there. And we've got a really good group of military and first responder spouses who want to really figure out life and kind of do life together. And so I get these questions a lot. And I just chuckle because I think so often, people think that I just went from like one kid to five kids and being able to juggle it. So all of a sudden, you had five kids? Yeah. And it's like, I went from not knowing how to do a podcast, my bachelor's was in clothing construction, so sewing, not business, or anything, like at all, you know, like, it's just a different world. Clothing construction is very hands on there is like, the pattern designing aspect. But that's not any sort of communications or, you know, none of that kind of training at all. Yeah, it sounds like it doesn't really require a lot of communication, just a lot of like, non dependent like, you know, yeah. Yeah, I hear you, too. Whereas now, it's almost three years later, almost 100 interviews with other spouses and stuff like, and things are consistent and running well. And I feel like I actually have good conversations, whereas the first few you know, it's just awkward. And it's like a first date. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 4:13

Do I ask?

Jen Amos 4:14

Yeah, so there definitely has been a lot of growing pains. You know, like, it's not even just growing like it's growing pains that you have, but how I do it is I've just slowly but surely learned how to prioritize my time. I don't do everything. I think people think I do everything. I don't. My laundry is never put away the same day I wash it. Like, would my husband like it too? Yeah. Is that my priority? No, you know, I normally don't sweep every day. My kids do their chores, and they're, you know, the oldest is only eight. So it's done that their level. Sometimes I go back and do it. Sometimes they don't. And we have a clean hygenic house, right? You know, but I just don't worry about things that aren't the priority to me. And right now the priority for me, is my marriage, and my kids. And then this community that I'm building that has been my lifeline and growing to be a lot of other people's lifeline. So I just don't care about anything else. Really, you know, I love it. And you know, for our listeners that are hearing about the waiting warriors for the first time, and you built this community, and it's a curation of resources for military and first responder, loved ones, which I absolutely love. I feel like we're two peas in a pod in a sense, because that's what our show is essentially, I mean, you know, we don't incorporate first responders. But I'm very curious about like, what compelled you to add that as well. But before I get to that, you really just highlighting the families behind these people that, you know, on the surface in the news, right, all you see are the soldiers are used to the first responders. And unfortunately, very often, they're one dimensional, they're perceived as one dimensional people, but you don't think about the families that they come home to you don't think about the ramifications, if anything happens to them, you know, so I just love that, you know, you also bring forward these military families, first responder families, who so often don't get recognized. Yeah. And I think for a long time, we don't even and haven't even really recognized ourselves. Like it is really deep in our culture. And I thought a little bit growing up because I actually grew up right by Camp Pendleton, which is a huge marine base. Yeah. Even though I married an army man, I'm sorry. You chose army. Apologize to all my Camp Pendleton, people, I love them. But I really saw like that these women just felt like they had to always come last, right. And they had to do it with a smile and not like to be robotic. But just any sort of negative reaction to the intense amount of craziness that military spouse life is. and English woman, my grandma's like straight up off the boat when she was 17 years old, like stiff upper lip is how I grew up in a very real sense. And I tried that. And that's like, what that military spouse culture has been for so long. And I tried it and I broke. Yeah. And I just realized, like, that cannot be how it is. And I don't have all the answers. Like, there's no possible way that one human being can have all of the answers for everything that life is gonna throw at us. And I just realized, like, I need to stop pretending like nothing is hard. And I need to talk to other people and figure out how they're doing it. Now, I'm also a big proponent of like, take everything anybody says whether it's military spouse, or mom advice, like with a grain of salt, like any sort of life advice, you take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's really important still to hear everybody's story and everybody's point of view, because there's at least a little something you can get from everyone, even if it's just oh, I really don't want to do that, you know? Yeah, I think one thing to note is that, I mean, I don't know, like the stats, but let's say for example, for every service member, and first responder, there's at least a handful of loved ones behind them, you know, immediate family. And so there's really more of that, you know, there's really more of the military family, first responder demographic than there actually are of our servicemembers and first responders. So that's something to keep note of. And just like you said, you know, take everyone's advice as a grain of salt. But you listen with the intent of knowing that you're not alone, you know, that these conversations should be normalized, Daniel, and I just want to check in with you, oh, man,

Speaker 1 8:46

so many things came to mind. One, I love that you have figured out what you care about and what you don't, I think that I've been married almost 12 years, actually, this week, will be 12 years, you know, and it took me a long time to realize that there were just things that I didn't have to or couldn't care about, because there were other things that I really wanted to do with my time and that you are honest about the progression. Of course, you didn't just wake up one day and have this whole community and five children and all the things like it is step by step. And slowly as my children have Eileen, to have gotten older, you know, I've learned I'm also not a laundry, same day person, I could care less. I've also really learned the pandemic has taught me that I don't really have to see all the surfaces of my home like I thought I did, because we never leave the house. So there's something on every surface all the time and I only care about it now because we're PCs and we have to put the house on the market and I'm literally swiping it into bins because that is the capacity that I have to care about all the things and just the way that you talked about like the military spouse, a couple of words came to mind like I think I had the same view coming in that everybody was very stoic. It's just, this is what you do. And, and that's just how it is. And I think that does such a disservice to the community in the fact that there are a lot of things asked of us, especially volunteering, we're often volunteers for all the things. And also, we live in a time where there's an increased operational tempo, like there's never not anyone deployed, there's never not any conflict going on, you know, at least in the era of service, my husband's been in which post 911 and so that's stoicism kinda has to go away a little bit, because there's a lot being asked of all the military families and everything, and it's different Gone are the days of kind of routine things. And we're in an era where, you know, like you said, you just, you just found out about deployment recently, you know, all of its ever changing. Whereas I think I mean, even in the 12 years, I've been doing this, we have gone from kind of a very routine kind of this is what you do to now there's conflicts everywhere. And there's things popping up all the time. And so the amount of time you have to process what's happening and you know, jump into the next thing is very short. And I think creating a community to allow kind of that mask of stoicism to come down is very helpful. I know it's been helpful for me,

Jen Amos: 11:28

I just don't think we have the time almost to deal with that and pretend that that's the case anymore. Because I think our community pretended that for a really long time. And the proof is in the pudding, like the divorce rates more than still are, you know, way too high. suicide rates are way too high. And I don't think that's by chance, you know, my husband's a chaplain. So we look at social science a lot. And it's not just because our soldiers go over and fight wars, that there's divorce and the suicide rates, it's because we as a community aren't handling our problems, we're just pretending like our problems can't touch us. And if we actually learn how to process our problems, then you know, then we can actually grow. And that requires us to be really vulnerable. And it requires us to be really humble. But in that vulnerability, and humility, we can actually create, and that's where community and strength actually comes from, at least, I mean, if somebody else finds it elsewhere, I haven't been able to ever create a strong relationship and community without the vulnerability and humility. And yet, we tried to do that while pretending like nothing fazes us, you know, it just doesn't work.

: 12:51

Yeah. Oh, no, totally speak my language. Those are two words, I love a lot, and I think go hand in hand with community. And you're right, like the only way to continue to build the military spouse community and, and strengthen what can be a very challenging lifestyle is to do that to lead with vulnerability and humility and talk about the things that nobody really wanted to talk about before.

Jen Amos: 13:14

Yeah, I'm curious to know, from both of your perspectives, do you think it's a generational thing to have that stoicism of like, I think about my family growing up, you know, my dad served in the 80s, and 90s. And unfortunately, we had lost him when he was two years away from finishing a 20 year career. And we were collecting these stories, my sister, she was really young at the time, but we're starting to collect stories about dad. And one thing that we're finding is that he actually really struggled with severe depression. But I think in his generation, it just wasn't a thing, you know, that you talked about? And so it's interesting how those issues, you know, are still very relevant today, if not more, you know, because of the pandemic, I would say, but do you think it's a generational thing that maybe like, that's just how the military life was like, or I mean, that's how you should deal with it. We take all this and we deal with it, because this is our sacrifice to, you know, to our nation. And yeah, here we are now like talking about our feelings. So, you know, so thoughts, thoughts for many of you on that? I think yes. And no, I think it could be linked to generation, but it also could be linked to just that generations, knowledge and thought of what would or wouldn't work?

Unknown Speaker: 14:30

Yeah,

Jen Amos: 14:30

I don't know. I get like geeky with the social science and stuff, because it's just fascinating. But like, when you look at the social science of the 80s, or 70s, and like, you go back like there wasn't any. So people were just doing the best that they could and they were doing a little bit better. Each generation, you know, we can see that. Yeah, but that's all people ever knew, at least in our Western culture. You know, because it did get heavily influenced by Britain and Britain has always been stiff. Let Dino. And that's a good point.

Unknown Speaker: 15:01

That's just

Jen Amos: 15:04

just a fact of what Western culture is and has been influenced by. Because we looked at other cultures, and it's not necessarily that way. But then, at the same time, one thing that really influenced me to put down my pride was actually reading my great grandma's account. And so my great grandpa was a prisoner of World War Two, the entire war. He was on Wake Island. Wow, this is a civilian contractor building out the airport, they were building an airstrip and the infrastructure. And then Pearl Harbor happened and Wake Island was hit the next day. So Wake Island spot for like two weeks, and then they fell. And so all of those survivors were taken as prisoner of war. So my grandma was typically a strong non emotional person, but she had 16 kids in a farm in Idaho, the Depression was going on, you know, like, wow, but she completely broke down, completely broke down, most of her kids, except for the older ones that were taking care of the farm were taken to a family, because she couldn't take care of them. And just reading some of the accounts of how she brought herself back from that. Part of it was because she willed herself because she had 16 kids that she loved dearly and needed to. But she had no idea for husband was alive in for like, two years. And she didn't know what she was supposed to do. But she relied on her community. And she relied on her faith to process everything. And she talked to people and it's like, Okay, if Great Grandma is allowed to break down, you know, and the community not ostracize her or judge her for that, then no, my husband's not a prisoner of war. And I don't have 16 kids. Like, wow, but But what I'm dealing with is still really hard. Yeah. And I'm feeling is still really hard. And so I think it's okay, I don't know, that just kind of let me process because I think they did feel things. It just wasn't, they just didn't talk about it. And I don't again, I don't know if it's because they didn't or because they couldn't, you know, they didn't have podcasts, they didn't have social media, you know, I don't know how things would have been, but I just think it's all kind of looped together. Yes. Yeah, I think the Internet has a lot to do with, you know, I think really pushing out, like mental health, like reform or like, you know, really just like this mental health revolution, because, you know, just the information, just knowing that even people creating blogs, you know, saying like, this is my life, this is what I'm going through, you know, we don't have to 100% rely on mass media anymore, you know, or traditional media to get stories out there we ourselves have that power, you know, to blog to podcast. And I think that, you know, if you hear one person story that you can relate to, like, that's the start of healing, right. But like, if you're in the military space, and or, you know, if you're on the ship for months at a time, and no one's talking about their feelings, you're not gonna talk about your feelings, you know, like, you know, I can only imagine all the things that my dad went through, and he was a very much keep to yourself kind of guy. I mean, he did have friends, but from what I know, he wasn't very open, you know, with his feelings. And he would internalize a lot that he would carry a lot of that burden of like, you know, I have a family that, you know, my wife is handling on our own, like three kids, you know, and I just imagine all that pressure that he probably didn't know how to verbalize and put out there because, you know, 80s and 90s. I don't think it just was, like we said, it just wasn't the thing at the time. You know, simple there. Yeah. It would have been super rare to have people on the ship, or in somebodies, you know, even hold division, you know, it's just, yeah, I mean, today, you know, how many examples do the soldiers actually have? In, you know, just if what they're looking at is just at work time, you know, like, that's really hard to find.

Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I wanted to add, is Jenny Lynn was saying earlier that this whole stoicism is a disservice to the military community. Well, I also think it's a disservice to our civilians, right to our civilian counterparts for them to not know the whole story of what it means to sacrifice and for you to have an opinion, you know, like, just speak your mind freely without knowing the cost of, you know, these families, these service members that are protecting our nation. So I think overall, it's I'm just so glad you know, kind of going full circle here to say that I'm just so glad that there are people like you, Michelle, who created something such as the waiting warriors to bring forth our stories and our narratives because it is needed, and it is making a difference. You know, people are talking about their feelings, people are getting help people are leaning against community. And I think with every conversation like this, we can continue to normalize that And make it feel right to actually lean against community, you know, in a space that can easily make you feel so isolated, right, like moving around so often and, you know, having to reestablish new normal every time you PCs. But it's like knowing that collectively, you know, our whole military community is going through that. It's like, Okay, well, how can I continue to bond with them? How can I tell people what I'm going through right now? And yeah, I mean, thank God for the internet. Right? Thank God for the internet and for being able to have our own media outlets to amplify these stories and these issues. Yeah, exactly. It's just, everybody has a voice, and everybody's voice matters. And tell me we start actually talking to each other? I don't know. It's, it's just way too lonely and depressing of a thought for me like,

Unknown Speaker: 20:46

yeah, yeah.

: 20:47

And as I listened to Michelle, talk about her great grandmother, and all the things, I think part of what has made it so imperative for this generation of both service members and spouses is that we're all volunteer, and have been for a few decades. But prior to that, right, there was a lot more shared experience, like nationwide because people were drafted. And you know, you could be happy or mad about that, and have all the feelings you wanted about that. Because there were, you know, 10s of 1000s of other people having similar feelings as you. And now we're an all volunteer service. And so there's a certain level of you pick this, so you know what you picked, and well, you're stuck with it. So thanks for picking it, and we appreciate your service. And we don't want to hear that it's hard, because that's what you picked. But that can be said of anything like I don't expect the heart surgeon to come home and go, Wow, everyday is so great. Like, there's no way there's no way that it is and so to have the same expectation of servicemembers and the military community really does a disservice to everyone, because it keeps that mask of stoicism up that we pick this. So we're okay with all the things going on. And that's just not the case. I mean, again, back to like, We're an extraordinarily high level of operational tempo. And it is only getting higher as things continue to heat up in different areas, you know, we may be drawing back in some, but others are very largely heating up. And so, you know, I think that has a lot to do with the importance of really opening up the lines of communication, both within the military community and between military and civilian communities, because it is different. I mean, I really think it's important that this generation of spouses and military community do talk both to each other and to the civilian community, because it will undo that mask of volunteer, like, yeah, we volunteered. And also, sometimes it's hard.

Jen Amos: 23:00

Yeah, it's not like volunteering means that we're like, not allowed to be human and experience and express emotions. Because neither, like, not expressing it or experiencing, it won't help us process what's going on. So if we want to have a healthy community, we can't do that if we don't process it, but we can't process it if we don't talk about it, because then we don't find the resources that we need, or create the resources that we need. Because every pamphlet that the lovely army produces, or military, even produces is from like, the 70s. Or, yeah, really nice pamphlets that they have.

Unknown Speaker: 23:39

Yeah, it's funny.

: 23:41

I love this resources are full. I mean, I work in military, mental health with a private organization. And those are popping up because the ones provided by the DOJ are full. Yeah, they are at capacity of being able to help the very people they're supposed to serve. And so again, continuing to create resources for people to have an outlet is excellent, because the ones that are taxpayer funded are packed.

Jen Amos: 24:09

Yeah, yeah. And why wait until we're like at the brink of divorce, or completely suicidal? Like, why? I don't know, I think a lot of times, we feel like we have to wait for those points to actually go and seek out resources or education when it's like, No, no, let's like talk about how to help our marriage when we get married, or before that, you know, and then as we're along the way, or helping our fellow military spouses cope with everything as they're going through it, not when they're at the breaking point. Yeah. I feel like a lot of this life is holding your breath until you can't anymore, you know, it's like, hey, just keep your ish together. Right? Like, just yeah, you volunteered. This is your life. This is the sacrifice that you're making for our country. But just like what you said, Michelle, it's like we could still be human to We don't want to just to hold our breath and cross our fingers and hope that we make it on the other side. We want to breathe, you know, we want to breathe, and we want to, you know, do it in community with other people that are going through the same struggle. And so, you know, if we haven't beaten the dead horse enough, we need to normalize this, y'all are pressing really hard on this and in the importance of community and amplifying our stories and resources, you know, holding down the fort wouldn't exist if it didn't need to exist, you know, the waiting warriors that wouldn't exist if it didn't need to exist, but it has to exist. And so that's why we're here and, and why we're talking about all of this. So I can't stress it enough. Well, I'm like you were saying, like, we hold their breath so much, we just wait until whatever, you know, yeah, for so many things. But then, like, that just leads to survival mode. Like who wants to live life, just on survival mode. And on the brink of you know, my life could go either way. Either I could crack or maybe we'll make it like, I don't want to leave my marriage and my family and my happiness up to chance. Like, that's bullcrap. Sorry, that was. You know, you could say it if you want. This isn't the show. But I know, I know. We've all been appropriate this whole time. So I can't I don't have a big problem with other people's swearing. But like, I don't swear. So that was like, that was

Unknown Speaker: 26:23

Wow.

Jen Amos: 26:25

He's really emphasizing this point right now. Yeah. He like makes me so angry, like, so, so angry. Because that's not how life is intended to be lived. So yeah, you picked it. Yeah, you're awesome and patriotic. And your spouse is probably like, you look at them. And you're like, no, they're kind of made for this job, right? Like, a lot of us feel that way. But that doesn't mean our family life and our personal life, and our marriage has to go to crap. Like, that doesn't make any sense. But if we just hold our breath, and pretend like everything's okay, then that's what's gonna happen. But like, that's why I'm so passionate, what the waiting wires is like, Okay, what do we have to do to thrive? Yeah, we really thrive. And that doesn't mean that we don't experience the hard stuff. That doesn't mean we don't have those days when it's like, Okay, I'm just surviving, today, I'm gonna feed my kids, I'm going to feed myself. And then that's winning, you know. But as on a general basis, we should be able to figure out ways to kind of go through the flow, and have more updates than down days. And at the end of it when we get to retirement, or whenever your spouse leaves a service, like, we want to have the retirement ceremony when he's looking at me and is thanking me, because I supported him. And I loved him. And I'm getting all teary eyed because of all the things we did. And our kids aren't, like, resentful, or just super happy. Because now life can be good. Because dad's leaving the service. Like, no, we want to have the moment when everybody's proud of what we've accomplished. You're strong, we love each other, we've supported each other. But that can't happen if we're holding their breath. Like, can you do anything holding your breath? You know, like,

Unknown Speaker: 28:21

not for long?

Unknown Speaker: 28:23

emotionless, 20 years? Like,

Unknown Speaker: 28:28

yeah, I'm not good.

Jen Amos: 28:30

My pregnant self after you walk up the stairs. Oh, my goodness, it reminds me of some of my friends I grew up with who were also military children, and grew up to be bullies. And actually, I knew two of them that ended up in jail, like in prison, because of just whatever they ended up getting into later in life. And, you know, they actually bullied me like, Oh, my God, that story for another time. But like, I think they were acting out, you know what I mean? They're acting out from just the struggle of military life and having to constantly uproot yourself and start over. And I think, you know, I imagine that was probably their way of getting attention or feeling heard, you know, it's a tough life. And and if you don't have that communication, if you don't build that community early on, and I like how you answered the question at the beginning, like, how do you do it all? You know, like, because it's really just life, you're focusing on your objectives, and that very given moment, and the only reason why I could ask that question is because I'm just looking at your life at a bird's eye view. I can, I'm just looking at it as a snapshot. In reality, this has been your life for so long, you know, you didn't just say, poof, I have five kids. You know, it's like you had one kid after the next right. And so it's like, if we don't acknowledge that and we don't focus on the day to day and focusing on our primary objectives, you know, family, and whatever else is important to you. It does add up, it does feel like you're holding your breath. And if you're holding your breath, your kids are probably doing that too. And then they act out in the way that they do. And I again, I think about like, just a lot of my friends who unfortunately just went down dark paths just because of how difficult the military life For them, the anyway conversation for another time, I'm just like totally reflecting right now on how they all turned out. But anyway, I think your kids are gonna turn out great. Michelle and Jenny Lynn, I know your boys are turning out pretty well. And so let's talk about just real briefly here, the waiting warriors, as we start to wrap up, I love how you, you know, you believe that military and first responder families can do more than just survive, but thrive. And I believe that too, I think we all deserve to thrive. And so when people visit your website, your blog, or even listen to your podcast, what are some things I can expect, you know, maybe some tips on that you like to talk about to help our families thrive, I like to talk about everything, because just all aspects of this life are hard. So on the podcast, it is interview based. So you just really get to hear how everybody handles the different things. And because everybody has unique stories, even though there definitely are themes of the, hey, we met and got married two months later, you know, and what that was like, because they had to get married, or he was gonna deploy, you know, like, that kind of thing, or the, there's just so many, but like, we all have a similar life, but also very different experiences. And we've all learned different things. Because even though, you know, we got married relatively quickly, and jumped into this life, he's missed so many pregnancies, and so much of our kids being gone, which other people have experienced too. Yeah, I've been able to be just because of my personality, I take away different lessons, you know, just because that's what my brain is drawn to. But then there have been other people that I've interviewed that have taken away different lessons. And I'm like, well, that's a really good lesson. I wish I had learned that. And now I've got to hear it, you know. So that's kind of the theme of the podcast is let's learn from each other on the blog. That's a slow build, because I'm pregnant with baby number five, and it's constantly in and out. But the goal there is to have as many resources is possible, and just helps, you know, for readers versus listeners, you know, just because on the podcast, we're almost on episode 100. And, you know, like, that is so much content, yeah, that some people don't listen to podcast. So trying to transition that. And then just on social media, it is just trying to share more of that every day, military spouse life in as vulnerable of a way as I can, again, I'm still myself, and I still have a hard time sharing things. But I also know it's very therapeutic for me, and also others if I'm willing to share what I can, you know, but yeah, it's really fun. I really try to make it a place where like, we can just be honest with ourselves, and think about our mindsets and our actions and deciding if those mindsets and the actions will actually get us to where we need to be. Or if we need to kind of alter things a little bit. So that's kind of the goal is to really thrive, but we probably need to change, which I hate. But

until then, until then, it sounds like you're doing just great. And it got me thinking about something I wanted to tweet the other day. And I just remembered I forgot to tweet it. But that's something I wanted to say something like creative expression is a form of therapy, you know, and being like, that's what you're doing is you're releasing what you're going through like that pain, that struggle, that challenge of the military, spouse life, the adventure, however you want to name it, right, like being able to share it with others is it's great for others, but I think it's really good for you. Right? It's you're putting it out there. And when you know that other people can reach out and say, Wow, like, I get that, like I resonate with that. There's something beautiful and powerful about that, you know, it's a really good thing to release. And to put that out there. So I'm just here for it. And I love how I guess unapologetic, you show up, right. I think that's the most important thing is like you're just you're just showing up, you're showing up in the best way that you can right now. And you're focusing I mean, I think honestly, I think pod cat in my opinion, because I talk a lot but I think podcasting is easier than writing. So I totally hear you. I'm writing this. Yeah, except anyone's a blogger, you're a writer, you're like,

: 34:22

Oh, I mean, you're right about podcasting. It's a lot easier to come on here and talk to people who have interesting stories and get to converse and commiserate and also uplift and talk about versus sitting in front of your own blank computer screen trying to type out 1000 words and 200 good ones come out and you stare at those for a long time. So yeah, but I mean either way, I think you know what Michelle is sharing what I've seen in my own experience now with podcasting and writing is, you know, story is what makes the difference and brings people together and changes the narrative and changes us. I mean, I can't tell you how many people whom I don't know have either messaged me or said something about Wow, that really touched me over something I've written and military, civilian, active duty spouse. I mean, it's run the gamut. And I'm always most excited when it touches people that aren't like me, because I know Michelle and I are gonna have those common things, right? Like, yeah, even Army, Navy, we've still got the deployment thing. And we've still like, but when it's people who aren't just like me that respond and go, wow, you know, whatever aspect touch my life,

Jen Amos: 35:38

from what I'm hearing is, like you said, the common thread is like, it doesn't matter what medium we're using, it's more about the story that we're conveying. Right?

: 35:48

I have a few. I mean, I can just think of like, random messages I've gotten from people. Oh, that's what it was that I've never met that read my stuff, wherever and found me on Facebook or LinkedIn, and was like, Oh, my gosh, that story really resonated. And also the people I've known my entire life that don't live the same lifestyle, I do that, you know, for every piece of writing or podcast I put out in the world, you get, however many likes or check marks or whatever, on social media. There are always other people reading it that aren't responding that you have no idea the impact of those words, on until way later. That's what I was getting, as I have a civilian friend that I've known for decades that I had no idea she read my writing, like, there's never there's never a comment or like, Yeah, no, and we were in a conversation about something completely unrelated. She was like, Oh, my gosh, yeah, I read on, you know, whatever posts, and that just really, you know, just your level of vulnerability and honesty about the hard. And her situation is totally different from mine. And I had no idea she read anything. She's like, I read everything. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, so, you know, I think there's a lot to be said for we don't even know the impact of our words, which is why they're so important. Because for every, like or comment, there's probably 100 other people who aren't acknowledging it at all, but that read it and held on to something that resonated with them.

Jen Amos: 37:27

Yeah. Yeah, for all the likes that we see. There's probably like, you know, I wouldn't say 100 I don't know, I'm not very confident in myself. Not but like, but you know, there's definitely there's definitely, you know, spectators people who will never let you know that they're following your stuff. I've definitely had people reach out and say, hey, I've been listening to your shows since four months now. And I finally wanted you to know, and I'm like, Whoa, like, so your voice matters, your voice matters, your story matters. Even if you don't receive that feedback right away, it does matter, it does make a difference. And that's it, I think that's a great way to wrap up our conversation. I think this is a really beautiful conversation, it's kind of a call to arms, and a good reminder that what we're doing is good and right. And we just need to continue to do it. Because you just never know, you know, something you may publish now may resonate with someone months later, you know, it may save their life later, may may save their marriage later. And so it's important to do it now. And so, you know, from one creative to another, Michelle, we really appreciate and respect you. And just also just admire the fact that you're doing this with four kids, and a fifth one on the way. Wow, I have one dog and I complain about heaven. So I am learning to not complain about my dog. Michelle, anything else you want people to know about the waiting warriors? Just, I mean, just in general, you know, like,

Unknown Speaker: 38:47

you're not alone.

Jen Amos: 38:48

You're really, really not alone. You're not alone in what you're feeling. You're not the only one feeling it. But also you don't have to do it alone. If you don't have a neighbor that is sympathetic, and you have a neighbor who is like, well, you chose this so you shouldn't be complaining. Just come on over and let me send you a virtual hug. And you can watch a real about me how I feel about those Diane's or whatever, you know.

Unknown Speaker: 39:20

But, Diane,

Jen Amos: 39:22

I've heard like Karen's and Diana, you and for me, but yeah, it was just a real that I posted the other day and it's like voiceover is like, Hmm, that's a really good point. Thanks. Damn, like, been Gil. Caption was like you chose this, but you pick this life. It's like, Uh huh. And I still get to feel things. Thank you. Good observation. Thanks, Diane. But really just like you don't have to do this alone. You really, really don't. And there are so many more resources like holding down the fort podcast, the wavy wire Then, but there's so many resources. And the more that I've been in the creating the resources, the more I've learned about others. So if you just feel like what you need isn't out there, I've been having a lot of fun directing people to other things that they need to. So please don't do this alone. What you are experiencing is uniquely yours. But there is so much more that we have in common ground. And that, again, you just don't have to do it alone. It's not all on your shoulders, and we can send hugs and love and compassion and empathy. And then if you need I'll tell you, you know, let's get up today. And we'll do a few 1000 steps and, you know, just get back, get back on the horse as slowly as we need to. But yeah, just strive for that thrive. Yeah, I say this love everyone stop that. Stop trying to be independent. And being community is better. It just is. Okay. I mean, it's not easy, but it is better. Okay, so just stop it.

Unknown Speaker: 41:07

I love the leg.

Jen Amos: 41:10

Just have like a note just a hat that says stop that. You know what, like, but I say that with love. Okay, like at this point, I feel like you all know that I care. Well, Michelle, I love that so much. Thank you again for just being part of our conversation and continuing to give back to our community as you are in the community and living this community. This will be in the show notes but let us know how can people find you? The best way to start is probably either just the waiting lawyers calm I think some people get a little confused because I don't think there's like a www before that. So just type in the waiting warriors calm. From there. You can find your favorite social media or whatever your whatever link you need for the podcast. But then also as we're coming out with some really good resources with staying connected during deployment and then reintegration because nobody talks about reintegration in humble, actually. helpful way. anyone's nodding?

Unknown Speaker: 42:09

Yeah,

Jen Amos: 42:10

those briefings are well intended, but just not necessarily as helpful as they could be. But just as those resources are coming up, that will be the best. Beautiful. Yes, exactly. Stop that. Agenda. Say awesome. Michelle. Thanks again, so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure having you and of course didn't land. Thank you for co hosting with us always. And with our listeners. Thank you all so much for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.