109: "You can support someone, but ultimately, they have to want to get that help themselves." Gold Star Families and Suicide Prevention Awareness Month with Leslie McCaddon

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your co host, Jenn Amos. And of course, as always, I have my amazing co host with me, Jenny Lynch, Drew jennylyn. Welcome back. Hey, glad to be here. Yes, and we are excited because once again, you have brought on someone you know, in your network onto our show, which I'm never complaining because you actually make my job easier by not having to do any of the prospecting. And if anyone has been following our show or the season in chronological order, you'll know that my objective for this season is to bring back past guests. So we recently did one with Jen Pascoe from pride and grit. And so now though your role in this season, really not that you had to have a role other than to show up, but you have taken it upon yourself to bring on guests of your own. And so Jenny Lynn, go ahead and let us know who are we talking to today?

Speaker 1 0:50

We are talking to my colleague, Leslie mccadden. She's also a goldstar, spouse, and just an all around awesome champion for mental health and great human being. And I am grateful for her presence here today and the conversation that we're going to have regarding her story as a military spouse.

Jen Amos 1:10

Yes. Awesome. And without further ado, Leslie, welcome to hold down the fort.

Speaker 2 1:15

Well, thank you so much for such a warm welcome. I'm just honored to be here and honored to work with Jenny Lynn. And to be a part of this podcast today. This is very exciting things. Well,

Jen Amos 1:25

thank you. And I think it's a mutual all around regards to all the good work, you know, that we all are doing. And it's just nice to talk about it and nice to know that we are not doing it alone, and that there's this whole collective effort to you know, sort of our military community. So Leslie, I think one thing that we definitely have to bring up first and foremost is that we have something in common. We both are goldstar family members. And although I talk with an upbeat voice, because that's my tendency and coping mechanism to be upbeat, and everything, I think people know that by now, being a Gold Star family member, they often say it's not a title that a lot of people are proud to wear, it's not something you look forward to wearing if you end up having that title. And my family has been a Gold Star family for 20 plus years now, and your family has been a Gold Star family for a decade now. And so let's go ahead and open up with that discussion. And for people who don't know about Gold Star family members, you know, what does that mean for you to hold that title?

Speaker 2 2:19

ause there are so many of us,: 1000

Jen Amos 3:47

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Leslie, thank you for being so candid about it. And I think it'll explain a lot about our topic today, which is about suicide prevention, considering that it is Suicide Prevention Month. I want to add something what you share it, I think it's interesting how your spouse had decided to, unfortunately take their life about 19 years into service. Because my dad was 18 years into service when he had gone missing. And we had every plan to transition out. You know, he was in Yokosuka Naval Base, it was mostly his last place to serve and then 20 years we were gonna get out. And you know, things happen the way that it did. Although it's interesting because today My sister is on this journey to uncover dad's story. We are trying to find his paperwork when they did an investigation on him when he went missing. And in addition to that she has been talking to you know, past relatives or people that knew him even shipmates. And we're starting to gather that maybe on paper, they said that his death is unknown, because he may have taken his life. There's history in his service where I found out a year that I was born, he attempted and he didn't succeed and the only reason why we know this is because they put him through heavy counseling to kind of get back on his feet. And continue serving. But I'm wondering if like maybe they said, unknown on paper so that we could have our benefits after we get out of the military. I mean, fast forward to today, my siblings and I, you know, all graduated with bachelors, we're doing all right, moms are happy, empty nester, healthiest she's ever been. But I bring this up because of just got a topic on suicide, you know, and I think about for myself for the longest time, it took me until a couple years ago to realize that I was officially diagnosed with mild depression. And when I look at the symptoms, I realized I've had it since I lost my dad, you know, and I started to realize, as I learned more about his story, if it's true, if he did have suicidal ideation, was handed down to me, you know, did I carry that as well? And so it's a lot of questions. And I'm glad that we're having this conversation. And I'm glad that you shared that because it gets me to even reflect on my dad. And I think it's all in alignment. I think we were meant to have this conversation today.

Speaker 2 5:53

bably in that sometime in the: 2000

Jen Amos 9:52

Yeah, no, I think beautifully said I feel like we can wrap up our conversation there. No, I'm just kidding. Beautifully said. I think if we treat mental health, like PT, like you said, and also even just taking a shower. It's like, hey, when you smell you know, you need a shower, when you have an issue, you know, you need services. I want to take it over to Jenny land because Daniel and I know that Matthew actually wrote an article having some experience with suicidal ideation. So I know that you have some thoughts that you want to share and add to this conversation.

: 10:19

Oh, I mean, I've all the thoughts on mental health. And it's D stigmatization, and how it very much like Leslie said, you know, mental health is health like period. And I am with Leslie on having been married to a servicemember now for over a decade, being able to see the different inroads that are being made on making mental health less scary as an option, when you're struggling less, you know, looked at as weak. And I'm really grateful for that the article you spoke about the Matthew wrote, you know, he released that last September during Suicide Prevention Month, but it talked about a time really, almost a decade ago. And it took that long for him to come to terms with that what was going on, you know, as the spouse, his spouse, you know, watching that it was something very up close and in full color to me all along. And I think one of the things that I am grateful for in being able to work with Leslie and be friend, Leslie is that she said something to me. When we were talking through an article, she actually just wrote on her experience with how to help prevent suicide. And one of the things she said was, you know, you have to take care of yourself. And so in her article, and as we have discussed offline, and as friends multiple times, you know, what does that look like? And how do we, especially in the military community, where there's still a little bit of that hush hush mentality to it, like, don't talk about it, it's not really happening. You know, what does it look like as the person watching someone go through that? And also, how does that affect you? And what do you have to do for yourself in order to be healthy enough to help someone else get help?

: 12:16

I think that's, as we've discussed, that is definitely something that I learned the hard way. And I think you did, too, you know, like, it wasn't until I felt myself kind of going down with his sinking ship, I realized so much that I was kind of joining him in the problematic thinking and the problematic thought errors, really, that he was thinking like, I was buying into it on some level, and trying to understand what he was thinking and feeling. And I think what we've talked about is that what I now understand is, I never want to understand what he was actually thinking. Because if I truly understood it, that would mean that my brain would be as unwell as his was when he took his life. So the most important thing that I could ever do, for him, and for me, and for our children, whom you loved dearly, was to stay as healthy as I possibly could, myself. And so I did seek out mental health care, I think the best that I personally received was outside of the military, I felt the safest personally to talk to someone who was covered by our insurance, but who wasn't working in the same hospital where my husband had now become, he'd been on the bomb squad and listed and became an officer and became an OB GYN actually. So he was a physician in this hospital, where, well, I had tried seeing a psychiatrist and therapist there, but I felt like anything I said, I just couldn't buy into the confidentiality, it just didn't feel safe enough to me. So I did have to focus on my own mental health. And ultimately, the really difficult thing about that, in my case, and unfortunately, is true in a lot of cases that I know about, is ultimately because while my husband was getting sicker, really with his mental health, and I was getting healthier, it became clear to me that until he got help, I had to protect our children from where he was going mentally, like he had become really dangerous to himself, and by extension to the people around him. And that was a really difficult thing for me to face because he was my best friend. I've been. We've been friends since I was 19. We got married when I was 25. And we have three beautiful children together and built our whole life together. And I wanted more than anything to save him. But ultimately, what you realize as you get healthy is that you can support someone, but ultimately, they have to want to get that help themselves. They have to be willing to get that help them out. And I burned down every door really to try to get him help before I left, and was ultimately faced with the reality that I needed to get some space to protect our children and protect myself and in order to be able to try to continue to help him. So I think that's another really difficult thing that isn't being talked about. And that certainly wasn't being talked about in the military. When I was in, in fact, it was seen as the failure on my part, to walk away from someone who needed me versus the empowering truth, which is that I put every support I could in place for and he pushed it all away, because of his own fears, because of the fear of stigma, the fear of losing his career, all of these very real fears. He wasn't wrong to have at the time. But the most healthy thing I could do, the gift I could give him was to protect our children, was to get them to a safe place and hope that that was enough for him to finally get the help that he needed. In our case, it breaks my heart that that's not what happened. We lost him five months later. It's completely tragic to me. But I also am not sure. It's difficult, like I always think there's hope. But the hope has to come ultimately, from the person who's struggling themselves. And as someone who has struggled with depression, myself and anxiety myself, and both related to grief, and just chemistry genetics, like we talked about before has this been passed down? In my case, absolutely. For my children, absolutely both sides of the family. It's a reality of our brain chemistry. But the messaging that my children are getting, as opposed to what my husband was getting in the military is that you seek help, like, exactly, if you smell, you take a shower, if you're feeling anxious, you get support, if you're depressed, there's a reason for that. And we treat that both with medicine and with therapy, as needed. And as defined by the experts as what is needed. This is nothing to be ashamed of, nothing has gone wrong, you're not broken, you just have an illness, like any other health issue that requires treatment and treatment works. So I wish that I could kind of be the mom to every service member and every family out there and just say it's out there, and it works. And you're worthy of that help, even if it means you lose your career, even if it means you lose that because your life has value intrinsic value, and you're needed, you know, so I want to say that to all the service members. And then I also want to get like, I have this like open letter I'm always writing that starts and maybe it'll be a book someday with dear generals, we have a problem. And it's that I want to get to the top, I want to sit down with everyone and be like, Okay, enough, what do we actually have to do as a family here, we need a mother to come in and say Nothing's wrong with you. You just need some medicine, whether that's therapy or, you know, an actual pharmaceutical option.

Jen Amos: 18:05

Leslie, wow, just absolutely powerful. I love that you're speaking that, like, I want to be the mom, I want to be the person that can be like, Hey, this is what it looks like on the other side, if you don't get help. And often part of why I like to show up as a goldstar daughter is I like to I like to hopefully, you know, have, let's say fathers that are active duty military to look at me and think of their own daughter and think like, I have to do this for my daughter, you know, I'm very grateful that I've gotten so much help to be at a place where to know about my dad's story to not interpret it as, Oh, he didn't love me, oh, he didn't want to be there for me, you know, like, I was only one when he decided, it's like, I could have easily told myself a very sad story about that. And I'm so grateful for all the help that I've gotten. And part of why, again, why show because I hope that even my own existence, will encourage our active duty service members and families to get help, because it's so needed. It's so necessary. And it's so wonderfully accessible today, right? Yeah. and gentlemen, I thought I'd check in with you. Because, you know, you and I are so big on talking about mental health. And sometimes we joke about it, and we laugh about it quite often, but we need it. We absolutely mean it. And so I want to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, I

: 19:18

mean, I think both of you really speak to the reality of needing to take care of yourself. You know, thinking back you reminded me of Matthew's article and thinking back to that time in our life and then all the things that came after I really much like Leslie, like, put up a very large protective bubble around myself in regard to my own mental health and well being, you know, I was saw therapist and you know, I'm also part of a 12 step recovery program that provides an extraordinary amount of support and a way of Life that empowers me to do what I need to do for myself. And that promises in doing that, it will change the air in your house on a really houses hit the like, people will begin to see the change in you. And that one way or the other will affect them. And 99% of the time, it's for the better. And so my own journey with watching him struggle and struggling myself, you know, I mean, I definitely went down the loop to for quite a while and was pretty unhealthy myself. But then in realizing that one, neither of us were going to come out better if we both went down the drain. And putting up that bubble around myself. What happened in our case is that me getting healthy, did change the air in our house. And because of that we have a much different relationship now, then we for sure did then, and also had kind of in the years after the most intense struggle, because those years caused a lot of hurt on both sides. But in continuing to make sure that I was at my healthiest it allowed for those hurts to come to the surface, and to be talked about and to be worked through. And so we have a very different marriage today, then, you know, and I would say much deeper than even you know, we did when we thought we were so in love 12 years ago when we got married. And so I just I personally cannot say enough about the need for good quality help and mental health care for myself and my family. But really, for active duty families sometimes this let you know. And earlier today, we recorded with Jen pass ball. And we talked about that cumulative effect of military life. I mean, it speaks to what Leslie said, like Mike saw and did a lot of things. It's never one thing. One thing, it's never one thing. And so the need for Accessible health and health care, while on active duty. I just think, you know, I'm with you. And it's funny, I heard Leslie say your generals. And I'm like, Admiral, you know, and I have long been a proponent of it really is going to take not just those of us like the three of us on this podcast, who have personal family experience, and also individual help. But people in the military who are willing to say, look, I got help, and I still made rank. Look, I got help. And I still move forward. Look, I got help. And my family didn't implode, like look, I got help. Absolutely.

: 23:04

Absolutely. And I think both your story and my story, say that your story shows, look, we got help. And it worked. My story shows he refused to get help. And he died from his illness, you know, because he didn't get that help. So I think having those stories out there in our communities is what's so important, and I think makes you so brave jennylyn honestly, because it is so difficult. You Brett, you mentioned that being active duty being in that community and where it is still hashed and where it's still said, we don't talk about this. And I was too scared. I mean, I went to his command, but I didn't go to my friends. I didn't tell people, I didn't tell my peers, hey, we're struggling. And I don't know what to do. Because I was afraid of embarrassing him. I was afraid of embarrassing myself. I didn't know other than my therapist, and maybe a couple of close friends outside of the military, where I could really open up and so I I just want to thank you for your courage, truly, because it's that kind of courage from within the military, that's really going to continue the conversation that ultimately makes the kind of changes we need to make, like this has got to happen. And I'm kind of on the outside shouting in, you know, like I still, you know, have these opportunities. And I still, you know, I've done a lot of advocacy they Time magazine did a cover story about Mike staff, and that's been out in the world and I spoke at the god VA. There was a suicide prevention conference in 2012. I spoke out in front of generals, I got to really tell my story and try to be heard. And yet I sort of feel like I'm on the outside like I'm in that and I don't know if you experienced this to gem like being a Gold Star family is it's so disorienting is The name, the word that comes to mind, because I still feel like the military is my family. But I don't feel like the military always sees me as part of their family. And I try to respect that. Because I also know what I represent is the scariest thing that can happen to anybody in the military. And it's too scary to look over there, it's easier to not fully acknowledge that your spouse may die. Like who wants to think about that when you're trying to just survive? Being a military spouse? I know, I didn't, I wasn't going out of my way. You know, I didn't really no people personally at that time. And anyway, but I think like, what you're doing is what needs to happen is that conversation from within, and being willing to be honest, both you and your husband being willing to say, hey, I've struggled and I'm got help. And I'm still successful, he's still successful in his career, he's showing that it is completely possible to have treatment and excel in the military.

Jen Amos: 26:02

Yeah, this is why I absolutely appreciate Jenny Lynn for being on the show. And I don't take her transparency and her openness for granted. Because I just think about even my mom, when she was a military spouse, and how she just kept moving forward, you know, it wasn't about having this open discussion of, hey, we're gonna move again, it's more like, hey, put that in this box. And, you know, it's just, it was more about just moving forward and foreign forward. And then even after we lost dad, it was almost as if he was forgotten. I mean, after we did everything we needed to transition back into the civilian world, it was almost as if he didn't exist, like, yeah, we would visit his marker and Fort rosecrans cemetery every Sunday. But like, that was it, even when we would show up to his marker, my mom would stand there silently. And, you know, probably praying in her head, but there was never this outside dialogue of what had happened, you know, and so it was very much this whole, like, you got to internalize it. And, and lastly, I appreciate you bringing up just kind of the experience of what it's like to be a Gold Star family member, because when I started this podcast show, I very much had an imposter syndrome about it, because I thought, okay, I want to talk to military families, but like, I'm a Gold Star family. And I don't know, if I'm going to remind people of their mortality. I don't know if they want to talk to me, I don't know if they want to block me out of their memory. I don't know, I don't know if spouses will understand. But you know, it's like our own existence matters, right? Like our own existence, our own story. And I just want to commend you, Leslie, for just being so articulate in sharing the journey of your family and what your experience has been as a goldstar wife. And you're right, it's like, because we're far removed from this military life, we can kind of look from the outside in and say, Hey, do this, do that or like, you know, you're gonna be okay, get help, because we know what it's like on the other side, and not that we're trying to like scare people. But the reality is, they're I mean, you've joined the military, knowing full well that someone might lose their life, you know. And so our existence should be a good reminder, but not in a way where it scares people off to like, not do their wills, for example, like, Oh, no, I don't want to do my will. Because I don't want to think about death. But just being reminded of like, what could we do to prevent something such as this, such as suicide, if it's possible,

: 28:07

I agree. And I think it's really about supporting one another. It's just about learning to that we're all in this together, like whether you know, you're serving right now, whether you're an officer or you're enlisted, whether you're a spouse, or a service member, whether you're a child, like the army is only you know, like, it's a whole thing, like you're only as good as your weakest link. Well, that applies to the whole network of the military. It's not just the soldiers, the soldiers are impacted by their families, and the families are impacted by their soldiers. And we have to constantly be looking at how to strengthen Yeah, the military as a whole. And that really has to include the family members. And in a way, it's like the absolute best place to start, in my opinion, because, you know, it's like when the family's strong, then we're able to take care of ourselves so that then we can help service members who are maybe dealing with more complex concerns around help seeking, but we can empower them and through conversation with each other. As Jenny Lynn speaks to other wives and says, Hey, this didn't ruin his career to get his help, that strengthens another spouse to tell their spouse, this isn't gonna ruin your career. But we need to do this because it's what's best for you. It's what's best for our family. And it's ultimately what's best for the military, too. Because if your husband hadn't received help with math, you hadn't done what he did, they'd be missing out on a really great asset for the military. So it's important on all levels for everyone to understand that and for that conversation to I mean, sometimes feels like we're shouting into a great abyss like I feel like you know, it's like the who's in who Ville but I do feel like eventually like if we just keep telling the Stories. They'll be that final little Yup, from the tiny little. And it'll like be what changes everything. Right. So each one of our voices, all of our stories are so important. And podcasts like this that are just opening at the conversation are so important, because so hopefully some of it somebody is listening alone in their car. And they're hearing like, wait a minute, this is the day that I say no more, we're going to, I'm going to get help for myself, or I'm going to help my spouse. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 30:29

absolutely neat. Well, let's talk about some action items. Now. And I know we were talking a little bit offline on, you know, addressing these issues, bring them to light prioritizing the family taking care of the family, which I absolutely love. And I just have to applaud you for getting to that place where you knew you needed to, you know, distance yourself from your husband, like just talking about your background, how you two have been together for so long. To get to that place, I just have to commend you for the strength that it must have taken to get to that point, because some people would have gone down in the ship with him in a sense, you know, and I'm just, I can only imagine what that process was like for you. And I'm glad you're here on the other side to talk about it. So I just think it was it's worth noting how I guess, in a way candid, you can share that today. So I just want to thank you for that. And so as we wrap up, let's talk about what do we need to do for military families, military servicemembers to feel safe to know that it's okay to get this kind of support? Let's open up with that. And Leslie, I'll start with you.

: 31:28

I think it's everything we've been saying. I think the conversations need to be had, the more people who can share how it has helped them, the better. I do think it takes kind of the fearless spouses who are willing to talk to leadership in the military. I think Jenny Lynn and I are both people who have done that, and who speak our minds and say, Hey, I'm just gonna go ahead and speak some truth into the situation. And this is the reality, and this is what we need to do. And I'm not saying everyone's cut out to do that. But I will say that at the end of the day, with how my story ended, what gave me the strength, what has given me the strength to continue, and to be an advocate is that I really did try everything. You know, like I did go to counselors on my own, I went to our primary care, I sat down with his commander, they every single one of them missed an opportunity to help our family. But that does not have to be the case for everyone. And the fact that I had those conversations, that I was courageous enough to do that, even though I was scared to death, the fact that those conversations took place, or what has allowed the military to look at his specific suicide, and take some ownership, unlike a lot of people out there who very quickly want to be like, Oh, they have marital problems. That's why it happened. Or Oh, you know, they had a drug addiction. let's not let's not talk about why the addiction started, let's just say Oh, that it was because of that thing, not the military. We didn't have any missed opportunities here. Keep on going. In Mike's case, because I had reached out and I had documented. Every single time I reached out, I followed up every single one with an email. I have this stack of like, look at everything I've tried, I tried to save all of us this heartache, and was met with resistance from the inside because of that, even though my story did not in the way that I wanted it to even though I wish every day that Mike was here, I now have the ear, you know of certain people that that is why Time magazine was willing to do that article is because there was documentation and follow up and responses. Yeah, that's incredible that we could do the investigation so that people could say, whew, maybe we shouldn't assume that every spouse who is saying we really need help, is just trying to create drama. And you know, I was told that, you know, residency is really hard. We know this is hard on you as if I was kind of bored and looking for looking for attention. And that was not the case at all, but because I think that's what we can do. I think you can fearlessly speak up and be willing to fight for your family and their lives. And is that always going to have a positive outcome? No, but I will tell you even with a negative outcome. That is what gives me strength to keep going on is that I did try everything I knew how to try. So even though we don't have him alive today, I never have to ask myself, what else could I have done? So I think that that's that's what I would like to encourage. Now that's easy for me to say on the outside, but it's easy for me over here where I'm not looking at blowing up a career, but I'm hoping to the Lin it seems like we're making that progress. I don't know specifically whose career is being blown up. I hear isolated cases. But I want to hope I want to believe that we're making progress and that the truth is people can seek help, if not through the military than outside the military with the kind of work that Jimmy Lin and I are both doing like there's, there are nonprofits, there are other mental health options that are supporting outside the system.

: 35:19

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I do want to address the career thing in saying that some of the fears are completely founded. There are other things that impacted my husband's career and our ability to go and do things. It was not mental health related, and had nothing to do with him seeking treatment. For that, I do want to say that there are other things. And I want to say it's been my experience in that same sort of advocacy lane, that most of it comes down to personalities over principles. And the principles are changing in the favor of help and knowing that the whole family unit needs support, do I still think it has a long way to go? Sure, I do. That's why there are many nonprofits that support the military sector, because one, they can't do it all, it would be impossible to do at all. And so there are wonderful nonprofits out there in support of servicemembers and their families. But my hope is that just like, in my family's case, it was truly a personality over a principle, but that the principles are in the right place. In my work as the outreach coordinator for the Steven a Cohen, military family clinic at VSD, you know, I have a front row seat, to looking at the things, especially the Department of the Navy, because that's whom I work with most often and very closely with, like, those principles are changing, and they are putting people and programs in place to address all of this. So the support is there. And I am hopeful that as more and more people realize this is not a career buster, you know, the support will continue to grow, and people will continue to access it. Because I do think the principles are shifting for the good.

: 37:23

That's amazing to hear. And that's what I hope for, because sometimes we just look at the numbers and the numbers, say something different, then, you know, when you have something as large as the entire military, changing a principal it's going to be it's a huge seismic shift. And it takes time for that to actually, you know, kind of build up into something that on the surface that we actually see in practice, that I do find a lot of comfort in hearing from someone within it. And as I'm starting to see too, in the work, I've just started working with jennylyn doing outreach for some of the clinics were opening in other parts of California to, and I have the same feeling of hope, for the first time in a long time that I can see the beginnings of this shift. And I love that idea that it's a principle shift. And now we do just have to maybe a few personalities match up. And the way that those bad happens to is really by having these conversations and to keep having them.

Jen Amos: 38:27

Oh, wonderful. I don't have anything else to say after that other than thank you both for, you know, this conversation and for just creating continue to create awareness. And this is a great way to bring awareness to suicide prevention month, and to have a fellow goldstar family member to share their perspective. So thank you, Leslie. And we will provide resources in the show notes here if you're interested in some resources. But Leslie, before we wrap up, how would you like people to get a hold of you? Or what is a resource you want to share with us today? Before we go?

: 38:59

Well, I have to share like Jenny Lynn said that the Coen veteran network has clinics throughout the United States that are serving military families, veterans and their families. That's a mouthful, that I just didn't do that. Well, but the point is, there is help available and I definitely would encourage everyone to see if there is a coding clinic in their area. And you can find me right now on Facebook, I guess is the best place. I'm on there as Leslie Amanda, but I also have done some coaching of moms and military moms and military widows. And you can find me there at the happiest mom coach. And I still do that a little bit on the side, although my priority is with the clinics now.

Jen Amos: 39:44

Fantastic. Well, thank you both. Leslie, thank you so much for joining us, Jenny Lynn. Thank you again for bringing on an incredible guest to our listeners. We hope that you got a lot of value from today. And of course if you need those resources and a way to contact Leslie we'll have that in the show notes for you. So So all that being said, Thank you all so much for joining us, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.