120: "Within the military dad story, there's trauma, sadness and ugliness. There's also richness within that story." Bringing every dad home with Ben Killoy

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am recruiter and co host Jenn emos. And as always, I have my co host with me, Jenny Lynch troupe. Jennylyn. Welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:10

Hey, glad to be here today.

Jen Amos 0:12

Yes, and we are really excited because once again, we are bringing on a fellow podcaster to join us on our show. Actually, I have known this individual for some time now. And I'm going to have to brag about the fact that on his show, I am the first and only Goldstar daughter that he had interviewed. But let me go ahead and bring them on Ben key loi, he is a marine, veteran speaker and coach with a focus on helping dads step into their best life. You can check out his podcast show now called military veteran dad podcast. And also fun fact he was the recent keynote speaker at the at home dad con. His speech was titled man in the mirror, which I'm excited to dive into in our conversation a little later. But Ben, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 0:55

Thank you for having me. I love being a podcast mode. I love having conversations. And I love pulling threads like the Marine Corps, a loose thread on a uniform is called an Irish pennant. Some of those loose threads and you pull them in interview, those are some of the biggest gold and that was exactly what happened in your interview, Jen. And I can only imagine some of the same Irish pennants are gonna be pulled in this interview as well.

Jen Amos 1:14

k that was like, wow, I think: 2019

Speaker 1 2:12

You're welcome in a lot of what military veterans and really everybody that has a story is when we don't give it oxygen, we really are just limiting its ability to gain fire to gain impact. And sharing your story is why I have a podcast my podcast essentially helped me do I started with this idea that I need to where I really had this fear of like who the heck am I that should start a podcast. And I did it and I kept doing it. And it was like a muscle. But the more times you exercise your story, the more you realize it's actually this giant mountain mover, more your exercises, the bigger the mountain, you can move and people have got some big mountains out there in front of them. And that's the power of a story is the moving for people.

Jen Amos 2:51

Man, that's a amazing copy that you just said right there. That's a Tweet of the day Jennylyn you're all about humanizing our military experience. And a lot of that is through storytelling. So I'm curious if you have any opening thoughts?

Speaker 2 3:05

Oh, I mean, literally, like, that's the tweet. I 100% loved every single bit of what he said, as a writer and storyteller myself. I mean, I think that is the thing that connects us all. Like, everybody has a story. And it's in the sharing of those stories, that we find empathy that we find hope that we find healing, like all of those things come from being willing to share a story.

Speaker 1 3:29

I want to dive into something why we're in this moment of storytelling, biggest reasons why I love military dads, especially. And why I have my podcast focusing on military debt is because within our story, there's trauma, there's sadness, there's ugliness. But there's richness within that story, not from money. But within wisdom. We've only seen the world through the eyes that we've seen it and only we can see the wisdom, the ideas, the advice. And if we can learn how to tap into the richness of our story, learn how to cultivate it so that our kids can hear the lessons that we had to learn the hard way, help them understand where they need to go, we can give our kids an edge as military dads that no other kid can have. And as a father, I truly believe my ability to influence my kids is never been greater than as a father and for me to take my story to understand how I can find little breadcrumbs to help them. I fully believe that that will help them go out in the world with a deeper belief that they can impact and change it because dad opened his story and helped me understand his story. So I could help write my own

Jen Amos 4:32

word. I think that you said Ben and I especially like it because I think about like in working in the military community and working with a lot of veterans. You know, my initial experience coming back to the community was a lot of insecurity because when you think veteran you think and I mean Jennylyn described this before like that, bro like everything is very like hyper masculine very bro. Like very like, don't talk about your feelings, but um, you know, just kind of like that attitude of like, you know, let's come on As if we're strong. And you know, just like what you said, I think in a way, it kind of does a disservice to the community and the family, and even then the veteran themselves to not be able to, like learn or be encouraged to talk about their feelings and share their wisdom, because there is so much, you know, like, I see it in my own husband, who, you know, West Point grad veteran, post, 911. Vet, and how it took couples counseling to know how he really felt, you know, but I think it's because as a society, there's just a lot of pressure for men to not talk about their feelings. So I kind of feel like we're going behind the curtain with you, Ben, by hearing,

Speaker 1 5:38

I live my life in front of the curtain. Like there's, there's a few secrets of my life, I opened my life as a book for other people to learn from what I learned.

Jen Amos 5:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that I love that you're that, in a sense, you're that voice for everyone, for a lot of men, in my opinion, who would rather not talk about things or maybe don't have the language or, you know, the encouragement to be able to do that. So I want to just say kudos to you for being able to have found that ability in yourself to speak and show up the way that you do.

Speaker 1 6:05

And it wasn't always there. Because for me, like the idea of me talking about the idea of me opening your stories up, I was the last person that would go up to talk to strangers. But when I first started, like my story began, because I started talking to dads at the park. And in those early conversations, they would tell me like, bend the way you put words together, I felt something that I didn't know how to feel. But I definitely need to feel. Yeah, and so when people like give you those little breadcrumbs of like, the way you articulated words, allowed me to access emotion that I didn't even know was there. And that's often the reason why I love podcasting. That's why I'm going even bigger with being professional speaker and like date on Dad calm that I was just that, it's all of those speaking moments where I can help gift, a feeling a story into their life that allows them to move through the story that they're kind of holding back and you hit on something that men aren't allowed to be anyone different than who men have been set up to be. And that's only the Instagram reel of our life. But we are whole dimensional, we have all these other dimensions of our life, we have all the different areas everybody else has. But we're told we can't be those other things. And part of my keynote that I just gave is this idea of taking a book. And if your book was written from the beginning of your life, to this day, what pages have been ripped out, because either the pain was too great, or you were told that they couldn't be there. And when you rip those pages out, you're actually in completing your story. And when you make an incomplete story, you're actually leaving off the richness that I mentioned. And you're not living a whole story or a whole life. And there's a word that we often throw around the military integrity, and to really break this word down and tie it back to that story. If you go back to the origin of the word integrity, it was started in Latin with the root word integer, an integer is complete, its whole. And so if you think of the same thing with integrity, its whole life. And men, in many cases have not been given permission, and in many ways have been taken away by the military, to be a whole person to say at work, I'm having a hard day at home. My wife and myself are not communicating well, when reality is military doesn't give you permission to deal with it until it's too late. You've already punched wife in the face. And that's usually on the other side, the wrong side. And it's that beginning part, men need to be a whole person to live their life with integrity, but that's a whole life. And to me, that was something that I gave to the dads on stage. And that is something that is part of my story of how do I bring a more whole version of myself versus this person that was just told off to go climb a corporate ladder after you got out of the military?

Jen Amos 8:38

Gentlemen, I saw you on mute. So I just wanted to see if you had anything you wanted to say.

Speaker 2 8:43

So many things. Yeah, I was on mute because I'm currently momming and podcasting my child just got in from school and was yelling throughout the house and open the garage door all the things and I was like yeah, I'm on air. Good job. No, but the picture you painted then I've just that book and the pages ripped out like back just made me teary generals how you I'm I'm the one with the tears of the podcast, but nine times out of 10

Speaker 1 9:12

all the Disney happy ending so again, yes, you

Speaker 2 9:15

are my people. I knew it. You're gonna get along? Yeah. Oh, for

Speaker 1 9:20

sure. I mean, I also reached her full potential and frozen to I was

Jen Amos 9:26

yes, I love Elsa. Okay, conversation. Oh, that's

Speaker 2 9:29

amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, the other night, I was trying to explain to my son how, you know, I have always been very tender. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, you know, like, you see me cry at commercials and he goes, You cry at commercials like, it's like yeah, like the USAA ones were like the people come home and the whole thing and he was but back to you know, the analogy of the book like that just as a writer like I can just see that so clearly into think that like, and I'm also a word nerd. I love that you went into the etymology of the word integer. And that is something I often do too. And it's just so rich. But really what made me unmute is that as you were talking, I thought of my boys. So I'm the mom of two boys, one in upper elementary and one in middle school, and trying to help them realize their wholeness and their full potential is a full time. Very difficult job, because there still are so many messages out there of like, this is what you're supposed to be. But I have had enough hours on a counselor's couch, and enough time in a 12 step program to have the tools I think to help them through that. But it is still really a full time job. And I just, I appreciate your candidness and your vulnerability as a man to go, Hey, look like those pages, all the pages matter. Like all the pages matter, and they are who you are, and you get to be more than one dimensional. So thank you for bringing that to the table.

: 11:08

I think you appreciate that as well. And with it, my son who's now he's in second grade, and He's seven years old. For me, like the golden rule, even with my girls, the girls are they get all their emotions from me and their fear, they can be a 10 to a zero in seconds. And like my golden rule is making sure that I don't take away their permission to feel whatever it is, whether they're cussing me out for being the worst dad in the world, or whether they're screaming for punching someone in the face, or whether they got kicked or whatever it may be whatever is frustrating them, I want them to like understand what they're feeling is real. And what they're feeling can be walked through. And that is what I kind of show up as like, as this anchor. So like for my bedroom, my younger daughter, that I've had lots of lessons to learn from my older two, because she was with me for the last 18 months while she was in preschool. And she'd be here with me in the mornings while the other two are in school. And she would have preschool in the afternoon. So I'd had mornings every day. And there'd be times where she'd be playing with her friend, she would just be melting down with emotions. The most things that I did in most every one of those cases, and even I did this with my son as well. I just sit there and hold them. I don't even say a single word. Because I want them to feel safe when they feel really scared. And when you're having a lot of those emotions. That's what you feel like the reason why men shut down is because someone in our life took away that feeling of safety. Whether that be our parents shouted at us, whether that be a story a moment. And so that psychological safety just feel like even for my daughter, I think of 20 years from now, the person that she brings in her life, I am almost positive, the person that she brings in her life will create that safety when she feels the scariest that when she's really shaky on how the world showing up for her, she can go to his arms, and she knows that she's safe, she will feel that safety because I created the feeling early on and she can trust. And so to me that like that little moment right there where you create that safety for my son and my oldest daughter as well, like our cat died May. And it was a two month ordeal. We never lost the cat yet. And it was like random like a bedtime during the day. Like they would just lose it. Almost every case and it was a single thing other than just sit rubbed it back. And Tom, it's gonna be okay. Because I want them to feel it, that emotion is real. And it's good. And it's okay, but you have to go through it. They're not meant to be suppressed. They're meant to go through. And to me, that's what I didn't have. And that would have changed everything for me. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 13:29

I like how you gave, you know, different examples on how to let's say, help your son navigate his feelings. And then with your girls. You know, it reminds me of, you know, in couples counseling, you know, my counselor would ask me, How does that make you feel, for example, but then when she would talk to my husband, she would say, how did that land on you? Like, what how does that sit with you? You know, and I didn't realize that till later, I was like, oh, like she's asking that because like, I'm more like, readily available to talk about my feelings, you know, then, you know, someone such as my husband where you know, and I love how you said that at some point in a boy's life. You know, they got this message that it was unsafe for them to, you know, share their feelings. You know, it's powerful. And I'm really just taking everything that you know, you're sharing right now. And again, I'm glad to have you on the show because we are a military family focus show. And you know, getting the perspective of veteran especially a veteran or military dad, I think is it's enlightening to me.

: 14:24

Talking about creating that safe space immediately reminded one of my favorite writers when her kids were in middle school had a post about like, you don't have to get on the rollercoaster ride like you can stand on the platform like middle school is nothing but like one big loop de loop but like you as the parent don't have to get on the ride. And I cannot tell you how many times in the past well since school started a month ago like how many times a day I remind myself like stay on the platform stay on the platform standby form so that I can be that safe space. Because if I get on the ride, we're all screwed. Like, everybody's way out here instead of, you know, freeing that sense of calm. And so that's just something that, you know, is good to be reminded of like that safe space, because that is a core value that I have that wanting safety and security is like, very important to me. So important to me that I that I sometimes as a parent, forget that it's important for everyone, because I am trying to be safe and secure. Like, and they're crazy is like, this is not safe. So I remind myself, like stay on the platform to platform. Oh, it's, I mean, it's a great analogy, because I immediately go to like, Okay, if I step off the platform, like I'm doing these loops, too, and I don't want to be that it doesn't make me feel good. It doesn't make them feel good. And nine times out of 10. When I get off the ride, like I feel like crap, and know that I've made my people not feel so great either.

: 16:08

And you got to show up and apologize, because most likely you wash your cookies. And you're like, well, that's not how it's supposed to go. Yeah, I gotta walk myself back to the platform because I didn't feel well when I got on.

: 16:20

Yeah, maybe have to make the men's and those are not so fun. No, well,

: 16:25

this was a bedtime talk. I one thing that I is I've learned over the years, you gotta be there for the small things, because later in life, they're gonna bring you the big things, but they they're testing you with? Do you care? They had an issue on the bus today. And that little moment, extrapolated over five years repeatedly tested is going to be do they call you when they're having an unsafe moment at a party? Or do they try to stop, hang out and stay longer? Because they're going to trust? How did Dad show up early on, and they're gonna rely on that later, but you don't realize it all those little moments, you jumped on the platform and lost your craziness. Like, that's what they're gonna like, Is dad gonna jump on his platform and go crazy? Because I am at a party I'm not supposed to be? Or is it gonna make sure I get home safe, and that's what he's most important about. And like it, it's crazy how it worked. Because you don't really know how is working until you're, they're 20. And you look back, you're like, ah, there's the manual, I missed it. When you're, when you're making it up, as the kids are younger, especially between like zero and 10, you just feel like the laboratory like I'm in as well.

Jen Amos: 17:22

Yeah, I think you know, someone who lost her dad at 10. Like, I often say that we spend all of our adult life trying to unpack our childhood. And I love how intentional you are with this first decade, you know, for all your kids, because it's like, you remember those, that is the foundation that they're going to refer back to, you know, I think about like, in my teens, and even in my young 20s, the way that I would act out in front of my mom had a lot to do with, you know, the neglect, I felt growing up, you know, just the little moments where I had a general curiosity about life. And it just kind of was brushed over like no one answered that. And it built up in time, you know, to the point where, you know, here I am podcasting and obsessively trying to talk a lot and do all these things. And I think who I am now is compensating for that lack that I had, you know, growing up. And so I find it so fascinating, you know, for someone such as you, Ben to think about this, while your kids are so young, because I'm looking forward to, you know, following your journey, and hopefully staying friends for a very long time to see how your kids turn out, you know,

: 18:26

I'm looking forward to see how they turn out. I'll come back and let you know what what didn't work. There's three powerful words that I always keep in the back of my head, it shows up in my coaching, it shows up when I'm talking to men, people have a deep desire, and especially kids, it's a little bit a little harder to detect, but it's there. They want to be seen, heard and understood. Those three things govern so much of our human psychology. I mean, even you have a podcast that's to be seen, heard and understood. Like this is my story. This is like what I'm trying to prepare and get out there. Yeah, that is such a deep feeling. And when you can gift it to someone like your kids, another human being. I mean, this is why even my favorite advice from a veteran to a veteran or civilian to a veteran is there's hundreds and 1000s of veterans sitting on the buddy bench like your kids have at school on the playground, waiting for a friend to come over and listen, just like in Forrest Gump. The best thing you can do is just sit down and listen. And that moment where you see and hear and understand what they're going through. Maybe you have no idea how to fix it. But man, you lifting that moment of being seen, heard and understood, gives them the ability to like, there's the door, but when we don't feel that we just feel trapped in our own fog.

Jen Amos: 19:38

Yeah, absolutely. So Ben, we have been talking or hinting at your show, military veteran dad podcast for the majority of our conversation now and I want to kind of go back in time, let's say 2014 When you became a college dropout, you know, from just the early stages of you know, being in the Marines to you know, going to college dropping out to you know, being where you are today? Like, how big of a question. The first question I have is, how did all of that and feel free to, you know, paraphrase and rephrase it, you know better than I did? You know, how did all that lead you to where you are today?

: 20:13

Well, the first thing is I signed up for what tabs gave me on the way out of the Marine Corps, which was the American Dream, which was use your GI Bill to get a house, start a family, get a career move up that ladder, and unicorns and rainbows show up at the end of the dream. But for me, it wasn't the American dream and into being American help, because in that process, I lost who I was, because I was following the road that everybody else followed except my own. And so when I dropped out of college, because it just wasn't working. I was a dad for about two years. I remember a moment looking my daughter's eyes, like how can I take you into your life and lead you if I can't even lead myself? And so it seemed like a good idea to drop out because I was like, it's not working, I should reflect. But then when I dropped out, I was like, wait, that was the only way the grass was gonna get greener. Whoa, what do I do now? Like it just dried up instantly. And it was a six month drought of like, what's next now. And it was a seminar that I went to at work that kind of sparked his idea of leadership. And it came from like the Marine Corps, great leadership, they teach you all about it. But when you get into civilian world, they don't trust you to run the copier. So I turned it all off. And when that seminar, I was like, I know all this, and I know all these answers. And so that kind of re inspired me to read again, I started following Zig Ziglar. And just John Maxwell and just going down a giant rabbit hole. Well, I consumed a lot of information, but I wasn't doing anything with it. So then I overthought everything. And then about 2017, I was like, You know what, I'm going to try a side hustle. At that time, I was just trying to blog, I started a pie or a blog at that point called true purpose for life. My idea was to help veterans find a true purpose for their life, a little thing for it, and just kind of went through the motions of writing. But honestly, I wasn't fully believing in it. Because guys, like me, don't do blogs. And guys like me, don't do anything other than the American dream. I grew up on a farm in southern Wisconsin here. Like there wasn't a very wide view of how I saw the world it was you get a job for 30 years, you keep your head down, you provide enough money, you collect your retirement, and again unicorns and rainbows, that none of that was working for me. So that blogging kind of like, opened me up to a bunch of different people. I met some people along the way. And it all kind of led to September of 2018 When I went to military investor conference, which was the second one ever, and it was in Orlando, and I went with this idea. I was like, I need to figure out a podcast. But guys like me, don't do podcast. So that was in the back of my head the entire time. And I didn't know exactly what podcast cuz I was like, oh, it's I don't want to do it. It's not gonna work. It was a common thought in my head, right? Like five ideas. I told my idea to Alright, income idea. I told my story to a military spouse that I randomly ran into, I wish I could remember who she was. Because I told her my story. And it was just kind of like my own struggle to be a better dad. And she started crying. And I was like, Well, what did I do? What did I say something to offender. And no, it was her husband came home from war physically. But he didn't come home from war emotionally. Hmm, boom, my god aligned. And I ran toward my launch three months later, in January of 2019. And even on that plane ride home was when I came up with the idea I was doing a mind map. And I was like, What is every dad looking for home. And so I was like, Oh, the mission will be to bring every dad home. And it sounded nice. It felt good. But honestly, it took me two years to even figure out what that home word meant. Because again, I started this podcast with a validation that I needed to because there was something to explore. And so as much as I was helping other dads, I was really helping myself understand my own story, what it could do, how to articulate it, what kind of mountains it could move, what could move in my life still, because there was still I still had a job that I didn't enjoy, and just kept going down that road. And then even crazier is January 2020. I went into work one day, like a normal day. And by 9am, they eliminated my position and reorg. And my eight year career at that company was over. If it wasn't for that podcast, I don't know what I would have done because that was my purpose. And that was I already had a path kind of moving. And I was like, I'm not alone. Now, I still have something I've been carving for the past year. And so then I was like, it gets even crazier because then I was like, I was like, This is my chance to be an entrepreneur. I'm gonna go all in. I'm a professional speaker. And when you get all these speaking gigs, then it's going to work. And then Corona hit. Well, that's professional speaking is out the window now. And my wife being a kindergarten teacher, she came home life was chaotic with homeschooling virtual life stuff. And so I was like, I'm just gonna be a stay at home dad. I'll figure out and have conversations keep everything kind of moving along and percolating. And it just kept going doing that I kept figuring it out, repeating enjoying as much family time but still having conversation podcasting, figuring out whatever my big idea was, and I just kept rinsing and repeating and then come around beginning of January 2021 is really when I figured out like, even I water love. I was like every dad struggles to come on. This isn't just a military problem. So I even I have my second podcast now the business of fatherhood, which is a short daily podcast of all my little short little bite sized pieces of advice to help the busy dead. Do the same thing, because it is a pandemic, all within the masculinity of how men don't come home, we are told to go out in the world to find our value. And we don't feel valued in our own home. But the value has to come from the inside. And so like all of that came from one little moment in September of 2018, where we talked about a story moving a mountain, my story moved a mountain in this woman's heart and reflected back a direction that I had run. And now almost three years later coming January this year, I'm still running towards

Jen Amos: 25:28

it. Wow. Well, thank goodness for that military spouse.

: 25:31

Yes, I wish I really wish I could remember who she was because I would I would go up if I probably saw her face, maybe I would remember it. I don't know. I have like a vague memory of it in my mind. But I'll never be more grateful for that moment, because you gave me a gift back of what my story could do if I started telling it.

: 25:46

Yeah. One, I would like to echo that. Thank you for military spouses very similarly, I am here because of this wonderful group that I'm a part of, of military spouses, because they are some of the first people I shared my story with. And when you start to hear, Oh, that happens at my house, too. Oh, that like, and you realize how similar we all are? Yeah, that is what I felt. Yeah, it just for me, it definitely empowered me to share more, because there was a time in my life where literally, unless you were standing in my living room, you probably had no idea. While not probably you had no idea what our life post combat toward Afghanistan look like. Like it was literally the people who came in my house who knew what our life look like. And even that was, you know, and our chunks here and there. Not like the whole 24 hour span. But I just love like your words on home just struck such a chord with me that when I think of my husband, and I think of the things he says like he is such a good naval officer, and such a good dad. And also, it is hard for those of us who are at home holding down the fort, to reconcile the two often. And I know it's hard for him to reconcile because he is really good at what he does. And being a dad, just like being a mom, it's often a really thankless job. And so to want to be home more than a way but being, you know, earning rank and getting awards, like all the things that come with military service like that don't come with being a dad. Like that whole home thing just hit me square in the heart, you know, and also the other piece of being a military family is that we have to redefine home all the time. I mean, that's why it's

: 27:54

not a building. It's not a mortgage. It's just feeling from the inside out. Yeah, true value and love comes from and that's what the military often miss wires, because your husbands out there looking for the external stuff that they assign you. You want to be assigned home you already are home, but most men have been told to look for in the wrong places.

: 28:12

Yeah, well, it is it is that it is that feeling like as you were talking about how you you know, your cat died and you're like, and my kids it was like a two month thing. Like, I immediately when you're sharing that thought about we just PCs this summer and we PCs home like we are back in the area. But I was born and raised in my kids were born in like, for all intents and purposes, I am home. And also, everybody had a lot of feelings about it. Even though it was great. Even though we are home, like my people had a lot of feelings. At many hours of the night, mostly bedtime before we were all like ready to go to bed, you know, and just reassuring them that home is actually where your loved it's not a space and it's not a place. But you know that we are home for each other and, and we can have that and be that anywhere like all of the friends we had in California. We didn't lose them. They're still home for us like they're still relationships for us. They're just not here in this place. So I just all of your words hit hit all of my fields on so many levels.

: 29:29

I also heard that home is that place where you also can create joy. We often lose track of his joy is always a choice. And that ability to create it with a family of adventure, excitement and discovery. That joy is always a choice that we can create anywhere and we always have the capacity to create that joy. And we don't need it from other people. We don't need permission from other people. We can create it on the inside. Even when the house feels like it's burning down around with emotions like I'll feel perfectly fine when the kids are losing their crap because I feel it on the inside. I can just be like, Yes, this is just what fatherhood looks like, I usually laugh a little bit because I'm like, Really, this is what its gonna look like today. Because it's finding the joy in the little moments. And that's that feeling you don't feel insecure, when the house is burning down with emotions, you're like, This is just what life looks like today. And I'm finding joy in it, because I get to be here and experience it.

Jen Amos: 30:17

Yeah, I mean, just that topic of home. You know, just to piggyback off of what Jenny Lynn shared, I think about it actually, this is like, offline, Jenny Lynn, and I had a quote unquote brainstorming session before this, which was really, let's catch up session. So she pleasantly tricked me into catching up. But part of why I bring this up is, you know, having been a military child moved every two to three years, you know, you learn to create home, internally, you know, like, I've learned to just de stress or relax and self soothe, you know, because no matter where I go, no matter where I move, even, like having relocated, like seven times, the last couple of weeks story for another time, you know, like, I've learned to just go inward. And so I think like, like, like you all are saying home is constantly evolving, and you have to constantly redefine it. And what we've I feel like what a lot of us have learned is that it's internal. But if you have a family, you share that with your family, you know, you share that sense of home, that spirit, that sense, that sense of joy, as you shared bed with the family. And so, yeah, lots of feelings here. I'm feeling the kind of like a wonderful heaviness to such a real, raw, emotional topic. And, you know, I think you were definitely the best person to bring on our show. You know, Ben to talk about this, because also, as we also hinted, you know, Ben recently did a keynote speech at the at home dad con, and you titled your speech, man in the mirror, and I know that you've already kind of shared a little bits and pieces of your speech. But talk more about what was that like for you to get to this place in your life now, to really go out there and public speak and talk to dads, specifically,

: 31:59

it's kind of this moment that I've been chasing for a long time. And I mean, for two years, I've always been say like, my goal is to be in front of a stage of 10,000 people. And honestly, the more times I say it, the scarier it sounds. But that fear has been something I've always been running towards, because the more something scares me, the more something's amazing on the other side. And that fear as long as I'm not going to die, is usually just keeping me normal. So I always go towards what scares me. And to be able to do that, and articulate and how many reps that had to take. It's almost like the overnight success idea. Like, it may sound easy and spitting out these little sound bites, it sound really good, and only three to four sentences. In the beginning, that was five paragraphs, it was long winded, 15 minute rants, and just repeatedly over and over to be able to succinctly understand how to articulate it, how to convey it. When I went to military investor conference in DC a couple years ago, that was the first time I'd ever been in DC. And I remember it very vividly walking around all these monuments. And these got these quotes and all the monuments from MLK Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln. And I was like, the only difference between those words, and mine is they articulated theirs to move a mountain, as we started the beginning with your story, his ability to move mountains, the only difference between those people that are cemented in DC and me and any one of us is they've just put the reps and understand how their story could articulate something to move something. And so for me to step into that stage, and share my story, I mean, it was essentially my life being opened up, that this was who I needed to grow through as a man in the mirror, and there was a red thread tied to the entire speech. And the red thread is how you see your life is actually how you see the world. And what we don't realize is that how we see our life in the man in the mirror, when you look in the mirror how you see your life, from everyday from the beginning to now that shapes everything that you see in the world. And articulating how to walk through that story was the primary component of that speech of how do you change who you see in the mirror so that that way you can see the world for the abundance of love joy and happiness that it is versus all the safety that evil that you might be thinking it filled with. That's really just shaped by how you see the world and then how you see your life.

Jen Amos: 34:15

Again, sound bites all amazing. Jennylyn any thoughts

Unknown Speaker: 34:18

as you're trying to keep up with the live tweeting I can tell

: 34:25

by my writer's brain is like filing away like all the like the quotes attributed to been like my

Unknown Speaker: 34:31

friends call them colloquialisms.

Jen Amos: 34:33

Oh, nice.

Unknown Speaker: 34:34

I like that. That's amazing.

Jen Amos: 34:36

So you know, Ben, I love how you manifested this opportunity for you to be a keynote speaker. And so And like you said, in order to be articulate, it's not that it's not that people can just be articulate off the bat. It's like you had to put the reps and you had to keep practicing and keep refining your story. And I'm curious which part of your speech really which part of your story Did you feel like was the hardest to articulate and the in the hardest to flesh out?

: 35:04

The one that's still kind of unfolding. It's very simplistic in nature. But I feel like you can often move the most mountains is for me, like my story began when I started talking to dads at the park seven years ago. And when I had the courage to say hello to them, they gave me back what I was looking for. And they gave me back now who I saw in the mirror, but who I really was and who I could be. And it was that was what I began to step into. And so I was back in DC again, in that 2020 Right before the world shut down for debt 2.0, which is a bunch of debt influencers doing the same thing that I do. And I again, went to the hotel lobby and had the courage to say hello to a bunch of dads. I walked around DC with them in the very same way I did with military hipster conference. And we had a conversation about life. And that was, it was a really good conversation. I kept up with those friendships. And a year and a half later, one of those dads called me and said, we'd like to invite you to be the opening keynote for stay at home dad gun. So had I not learned to say hello at the park had I not learned to keep asking and saying hello and inviting conversation, inviting vulnerability that opened up something in my life, that I don't know where it's going to be, but to keep opening up and to keep being a vessel for someone to see something in their life that they can't see. That moment repeated over time was the long game that got me on stage to for opening bed, or the keynote for opening stage on dhadkan. And the articulating that within the keynote was also difficult because I wanted to articulate in a way that was simplistic, but it understood the power of what could happen when you truly do that. And a lot of the beginning part of the keynote begins with for me, in sophomore year of baseball, played two innings at a 98 which cemented a belief that I was a benchwarmer and created an upper limit that I'm never going to get to do what I want because I'm just going to be on the bench and everybody else gets to do what they want. I'm just going to watch it. That played out for 7680 days, or 19 years before I figured out that upper limit was in place. And it was moving past who I saw as a benchwarmer allowing myself to step out into that and fully open up my story of this is who I was, this is who I wasn't. And this is how I became everything I wanted to be. That was the hardest part. But it was also like the most rewarding because as I was writing the speech and wrapping it up, like the feeling I get when I closed out the speech like it was that moment that I was like, essentially wraps up let today let October 15 2021 be the day that you remember in the future is the day that everything changed. And you didn't worry about who you were, you didn't worry about who you were today, but you only focused on where you're going and who you were becoming. And that today, everything changed. And for me, I have so many those moments where everything changed because of a single day. And that was the gift I hope to leave them.

Jen Amos: 38:02

Love it. And you know talking about that openness, I love how you said early on, when I asked you the question like this is still unfolding for me. You know, that phrase alone, I think is a very vulnerable thing to say. Because I think often when people, you know, enter a platform such as this, where they talk about themselves, they want to come almost perfected, in a sense. And so I just want to continue to applaud you for your openness and your transparency and your willingness to learn publicly, you know, in front of people as you figure out and continue to refine your story. Genuine,

: 38:32

that wholeness that you got to bring that wholeness to I've just layered back on integrity. If I don't show a poll, other people are going to see the gaps and they're going to wonder what's there and so it's my objective to make sure they don't ever question it because they know where I am. I know where I stand and they know who I am when I show up in any given moment. Fantastic. I'm not sure if Jenny caught up though because I've said more things so she's probably already working on

: 38:58

filtering all the sound bites Yeah, that is fact I am a can be a slow processor, especially on heavy material because and heavy in a good way. But just like you were speaking my language, this is my wheelhouse of things that I love. It's why Jen and I often talk about community on here and mental health on here. Because those two things for me changed how I behaved behave in the world in such a way that like it allows me to continue to be open to becoming every day. I learned a while back that like there are two things that I hold really true as core values and one of them is belonging and the other is hospitality. And those are only able to happen if I am willing to come to the table wholly myself because people know when you're faking it like There's a whole, like, fake it to make it. And I tend to disagree with that sentiment, like you can fake some things. It's really hard to fake integrity. It's really hard to fake feeling wholly yourself and fully yourself. And because I so strongly believe in community and belonging, you know, I really am. I love the reminder today of that the etymology of integer. Earlier when you said it, I grabbed my phone because I was reminded of a conversation I had with a mentor of mine, my word of 2021. Was is still 2021, longest year ever, is reintegration for multiple reasons. And we were talking one day about the word integrity, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like that's part of reintegration, it's making things Whole Again, adding back

: 40:58

the pages. So that story that you ripped out those, that's what I also Yes, each of you can't be a good dad until you be a whole story. And that incompleteness is often the stuff that's holding you back, because you're not you don't have all the tools they use to get through it, because it's the good, the bad and the ugly that's meant to be tied to it.

: 41:16

Absolutely. And so I had grabbed my phone to like, Wait, I've heard this word before this year, like, why is this you know, and it's always the thing. There's been a couple moments like that in the past couple weeks where a couple words in particular keep like circling in my head like neon flashing lights, like pay attention to this. And so I am grateful for the reminder today of integrity and reintegration. Because you're right, like, you can put those pages like you can glue those pages back in and show up in the world like fully yourself.

Jen Amos: 41:46

Yep. So I feel like the natural question I want to ask you next, Ben is tell us what your relationship is like with your wife. Because I mean, very often, especially especially on this show, we have, you know, women or moms or wives like share their perspective. But we have you obviously front and center sharing your story. And I'm curious what it has it been like for your wife to witness your journey.

: 42:11

So in with my wife story, being a kindergarten teacher, the her world is often almost more like a veteran in some cases, because it's like the frontlines of being a parent, it's the frontlines of being parents for other people's kids works and under poverty type situation. So in a lot of ways, my story has actually helped create a safer place for her story to unfold. And in many ways, I feel like her story is still being unfolded, and uneven underwritten. So in many ways, I've actually been kind of the first person to recognize that I needed to grow up, I needed to be someone with this capacity to get our family through these hard times of the world continuing to get harder, schooling continued to get harder. And so for me, it's a continuing of me being someone that could grow up to create the space for happiness to exist, and then let everybody's story unfold, whether it be my wife story, whether it be my kids story, and go forward from there.

Jen Amos: 43:03

Yeah, I mean, that's the ripple effect of allowing yourself to unfold your story, right? It's like you encourage other people to do the same. You encourage people to approach you be like, hey, I can relate to that. Or you spoke the words of how I'm feeling, you know, that kind of describe. And so I just think that is absolutely wonderful. So Ben, on your show, the military veteran dad podcast, you're all about helping dads come home. And so the question I want to ask is, you know, what is the result of these dads coming home.

: 43:33

So as we experiences with veterans, as we're leaving the military service, purpose is a word that comes through loud and clear of when men lose their purpose in the military, finding again, is often the hardest thing that we get stuck on what I've learned recently coming home, by coming home, you're actually learning a process of grounding yourself. And once you're grounded, you can begin to take the steps to know where you're going. And most men lose that direction of where we're going, because military tells you where you're going. But when you don't have the military, who are you without that direction? So coming home, is about how do you create a purpose with the direction of where you're going? What do you want your family life to look like? What do you want your life to look like? 20 years, maybe 10, even just tomorrow, but then create the drive and the passion to go after it. So to create that purpose driven life is that path towards going home. So once you're home, you have this ability to see, create and understand how your life has not just been happening to you, but happening for you, and unfolding in a way that your purpose and drive align. And that your life is created almost from a natural ability of you doing what you've always wanted to do every day. The most important part of coming home within this idea of a Purpose Driven Life Is your family at the center versus something that's on the outside or something that gets ignored or something you'd go back later. 25 years later and hope they're still there. That's often the corporate career as you're planning it's so much your work in the long nights. You hope your family is gonna be there when you reach the milestones and in many cases is not there's a lot of marriages that end On the other side of 20 years in the military, so understanding how to create a Purpose Driven Life with family at the center, that is the end result that happens when a dad chooses to come home and choose his family and everything after that.

Jen Amos: 45:13

Yeah, you know, Jennylyn I know you and Matthew are kind of like in the shoe we transition out soon or not like, but either way, what is it like for you to hear what Ben has shared?

: 45:22

I mean, I think, well, the first thing was as a Marine veteran. Have you made home an acronym yet? Like first the acronym?

Unknown Speaker: 45:33

The acronym for? Yeah, when thinking about it? Where's the

: 45:36

explanation for home in a quick, you know, acronym, sound bite?

: 45:41

In some future keynote, I'll make it an acronym. So there we go. See, why isn't the corporate life? Because that's the real trick. How do I take home and make it in corporate? Yes, this home feeling is actually tied to like employee engagement and everything along lines of Yeah, making someone focus on work, because they care about what's going on at home. And it actually feels one another instead of ignoring one to try to focus on the other.

Jen Amos: 46:01

Oof, Ooh, good stuff.

: 46:03

Yeah. I'm gonna have to think about that, too. But in regard to my own family, and that feeling of home, I mean, I think, like I shared earlier for us, it is that learning that we are each other's home, you know, I mean, I see that things all the time, like Home is where the Navy sends us, well, that's part of the story. But home is really like, what we make it with one another, and where we feel safe. And my family has been on a journey of figuring out what's safe was, for quite a while, and I think, you know, we are now in a space of stability, where I think everybody really is coming home, like my husband and my kids and myself, like to each other, we are finding that feeling of home within our four walls. And it hasn't always been that way. And I know that that's not an uncommon military story. Like, sometimes it's a lot easier to feel at home any other place other than home. One, because you're not there very much or two, because it's just not safe for many reasons, like or it's awkward or odd. I mean, we're right now in the middle of sea duty. And so it's a lot of out in, in and out and then and out. And then which is, you know, unstable at best, like,

: 47:19

often probably feels like the compass is just spinning instead of having a direction.

: 47:23

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. And who does what, and what's the right thing. And, you know, so the fact that we have all put in a lot, my family has put in a lot of work of figuring out how to keep that compass. At true north, despite all the outer pressures of military life, you know, again, mental health can't plug it enough. We've done a lot of work, we've done a lot of work. And I think, you know, now we're at a point like we're 15 years and to Matthews career, and we are figuring it out, like we don't want to be one of those very high statistic members of hey, we did 20. And now not only are we done with the military, we're done with each other, we would love to continue to be each other's home base. I love that.

Jen Amos: 48:10

Speaking of home base, so as you know, our show is called hold down the fort, which is a way to pay tribute to the spouses who are primarily managing the household and, you know, maintaining that sense of home for the service member to come back to. But I thought I'd ask you bed, when you think of holding down the fort. What does that phrase mean to you to be holding down

: 48:30

the fort is remembering that there's two kind of principles that come to mind one, life has Category Five storms, it's almost a fundamental that life's gonna give you things like Corona, or deployment, that's more than you can handle. But holding down the fort is also knowing where you feel strength. Because knowing where that place is where you can go to visit it, how you find it within yourself. But then also understanding that this was something else I incorporated in the keynote is remembering that all roads in life are hard. But we always get to choose the roads that are hard than the one that we have the destination like the road that I've been on, was the hardest one to go pick, but I knew where it ended. And that was where I wanted to go. And so to me that holding down for it is understanding that it's almost like a Ford on wheels. And that you're controlling it, you know, where you can go. And you're making choices that aren't like just making you feel stuck, that we always have a choice whether we do something or not, it's still a choice. And that's something we don't often give ourselves enough mindfulness to, is where we are is exactly the accumulation of every choice we've ever made. And we have to accept responsibility for that before we can also take responsibility for even coming up with a new direction, or even healing through something to create something new.

Jen Amos: 49:45

Well, Ben, I have to give it to you. I think you've done such a tremendous job working on yourself and working on your show and working on your speech. Because you know, once again, I'm inspired, you know, with everything that you share today. So thank you so much.

: 49:59

I love that for it on wheels, like, Oh, he's moving it along. And I think that's great. Another great military family analogy, because literally our forts earlier actual fort for about two years and then it's somewhere else

: 50:13

and then your home goes on wheels on a semi and it goes off to somewhere else. Yeah.

: 50:18

It's packed in crates and driven across the country, hopefully in a timely manner, but not this year.

Jen Amos: 50:23

Yeah, no, I think that was a really great way to describe the experience of home for our military families. Thank you. Well, Ben, this was an absolutely amazing conversation. I didn't expect any less. So for people that want to continue to hear your story and reach out to you and possibly, you know, seek your guidance, how can they find you online today.

: 50:44

So military veteran dad, calm is the website, military veteran dad on all the podcast players that you can think of, you can say it on Alexa, Apple, Amazon, Spotify, you name it, Pandora. And the one thing that I want to give to everybody, because again, hello, is where I started friendships is where I started. If you go to free cat, Dad course, comm there's a 510 minute audio course and how I created more friends and how you can have the more and even one particular one and why it might not work and what you need to overcome, to get to the other side where you can create friends. And what we often feel most with or any stage in life is we feel like we don't have enough opportunity. We feel like we don't have enough choices in front of us to make a good choice. All the choices are like which one's the worst of the worst. And so what I've learned what would have changed my life in 2007, if similar to time travel back, or if taps would have told me this, that the amount of opportunity you have in your life is directly proportional to the amount of new people that you're talking to. If you want a wider view of what's possible in your life, you need to have more conversations, you need to be able to say hello, and I truly believe hello is the most powerful word in human language. And most people don't know how to wield it. But when you start wielding it doors open you never even knew existed.

Jen Amos: 51:54

I love that. That reminds me of when I traveled back to California for some time I brought the southern hospitality of Virginia with me. And you know, just walking into WalMart, you know, you see people walking by it. I'm like, Hello, good morning. And it's like I just I loved doing that. But you're right, like hello is really something that we can learn to harness

: 52:11

at the grocery store because I do all the grocery shopping. So I have the store memorized. I love looking at that person like that looks lost, like what are you looking for? Oh, it's top left. It's right there. Because those little moments where you're reaching to someone's life and help them those are practicing for moments you have no idea but when the moment you can get like over that comfort, you don't explode. That feels good when you help someone. And we were joking before we record like the frontlines of fatherhood is asking other dad for his number, you don't get to the point where you're asking your dad for his number. Unless you're practicing it random people in the grocery store. There's a lot of mistakes that you can make. There's just a lot of fear you got to get through. But the journey is worth it. And I hope that my life has been a testament to that anything is possible and you step into

Jen Amos: 52:52

it. I love it. Well, you know, Ben, once again, thank you so much for joining us and to our listeners, you can get ahold of him by rewinding and re listening or, you know, checking the show notes of this episode.

: 53:05

I just would like to second that, like, I loved what Ben said about like your choices, and it is a direct reflection of the amount of people you're willing to let in like, I mean, we've talked about on here before how often people think that networking is a dirty word. But really it is just like meeting people and building community. And I think when we think about it like that it aid takes the dirtiness out of the word networking, but to like it does really expand your world. And I just thank you for reminding us of that like that is communities my jam,

: 53:39

you actually just gifted me a brand new cola ism. So I can help and that's a it's a little bit dark one. But as of military dad, the hardest thing I remember sitting at Starbucks at 530. In the morning, the weekends when I would produce my podcast, reading articles about dads taking their own life and leaving families behind. If you think of this ratio that Jenny just talked about, and that I just talked about, choices is what we feel like we lack when a dad takes his own life, he feels he's down to one choice, those dads close off everybody in their life to end their life. So think of the amount of people you have except like, like allowed in your life. Those are allowing the choices that you make, and the dads that eventually come to that ultimate conclusion that they're the problem. They feel like they only have one choice left, but they also closed off all the other conversations that could have opened up a better choice.

Jen Amos: 54:24

Yeah, wow. They hit me quite deeply. So thank you bad. It

: 54:29

was too good. I was like, I gotta let it out there and hear it. But it's it that proportion. I was like, man, a veteran that gets down to one choice. Yeah, cuz he's closed off the world. And there's no more conversations coming in.

Jen Amos: 54:41

Yeah, yeah. No real talk. I mean, we could definitely expand upon that conversation, a whole other

Unknown Speaker: 54:45

episode that I'll get back for.

Jen Amos: 54:47

Yeah, I

: 54:48

need to bring you back on the show for sure. September suicide awareness. Yes. Yeah. Well, this

Jen Amos: 54:53

will definitely not be the last time to have you on the show. So again, Ben, thank you so much for joining us.

: 54:58

Thank you, Jen. And thank you Jenny for as well and I really appreciate the opportunity to share my story and hopefully help everybody else come home because it's it's worthy of the journey

Jen Amos: 55:06

Yeah absolutely and of course to our listeners thank you so much for listening and we'll chat with you in the next episode tune in next time