192: Moshe Krafchow's Innovative Approach to Wildfire Prevention - Tree Culture's Vision for San Diego

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode here at holding on the forts. I'm so excited to introduce you all to mo che craft Chow with tree culture. Mo che Welcome to the show.

Moshe Krafchow 0:10

Thank you, Jen.

Jen Amos 0:12

Yeah, absolutely. I'm very excited to talk about this with you. Because I feel like in a number of the conversations I've had on the show so far, and the people who've been through the service SEO program with the rose network, I feel like I've seen a lot of people who've been able to, like, build a business and almost execute it right away. And I think in the industry that that you've tapped into, you're playing the long game here. I think it's very unique compared to everyone else I've interviewed. So that being said, why don't we start by talking a little bit about tree culture and and what that's about? Okay,

Moshe Krafchow 0:48

r a thesis. It was the end of: 2007

Jen Amos: 13:20

Yeah. Find a city in America. All right, so big problem, also big opportunity, simple old age solution. And the next natural question is, why is it not being implemented? You know, I know we talked a little bit about this offline, where it seems as though it may seem as though certain people want a new approach by it's really an old approach being run by let's say, the same people. I think that's what we talked a little bit offline. So can you tell me about that, and really the red tape that we have to go through to present such a simple solution to a great problem and in a place like San Diego?

Moshe Krafchow: 13:59

Well, I can't say that I can answer to why it's not being done and why it's not adopted and implemented. That's not really the important question. If I had the solution to that, then I would have implemented it. It's a matter of inertia. Things came from here. And through our technological evolution, we lost certain things that used to be commonplace and common sense. And it was not always done right in all places. And there are many places where the land has been destroyed with herds of animals. So there is risk in doing it wrong. There are many parts of the world that people have clearly proven the capacity to just using animals and machetes and axes to turn the land into a desert within, you know, a few years. So it's not far fetched. I look at a lot of cases like the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. It's just a different in how the people practice with the resources on the land. So There is a great amount of risk. And as I mentioned, the last three generations, conservation by neglect has really been the way that was being approached because of so many ways that people in industry have gone into parts of the land. And, you know, almost all of the United States of America has been clear cut by the 1960s. So just putting people in the land is not the solution. So for a long time to pull people out, I was getting everybody out, you know, even pulled the Native Americans out, say, No, you everybody out. And they forgot that there is a role that people have in the forest. And that if we do it, well, we can have a wonderful living forest. But just pulling people out isn't really the solution. And it gets much worse in like a very fragmented environment like San Diego, where that, you know, you might find a deer here and there, but not enough to make change. And there aren't the natural herds of animals that would be in other ecosystems. So there's a lot of institution that has been developed to protect the environment. And I believe that a lot of my fiercest opposition are people who really care. And they're just that old schools, like if we just don't touch it, it'll be at its best. And it's just showing the theory to be false. But that's what academia and in government, I met with the an advisor to our state senator, who the senator sent her out to come see one of my demonstration sites, I was giving a presentation. And she came up to me and first thing she said was, you know, like, she's just here because she has to, but she definitely doesn't believe in what I'm doing. And so without even seeing anything, and I got a second meeting it or office at a later time to, I ran into her at the elevator. And she said, Well, you know that the municipal code for this, I wrote it for the city when I was working for the city 30 years ago, and there's nothing you're going to tell me, that's going to prove me otherwise. So I just run into this stone wall of institution. Yeah, I see it starting to improve grazing management, in general, in California and in San Diego has become much more common over the last five years, I have a friend of mine actually started a grazing management company, but they don't do the whole full service, there's a lot of things to know. And there's a lot of things to overcome to be able to get it funded to do it on a large enough scale. But grazing management is becoming more commonplace. And if you do the grazing management without the whole silvicultural work, it's not as effective. It doesn't really bring everything up, if you don't balance the forest first, if you balance the forest first, then you bring in the animals and you have more feet, and you have a better forest. So I'm seeing like little steps that are being implemented are bringing more to the overall consciousness. So it's more heard of and I meet with different the resource conservation districts and fire departments. And I've had lots of people say, oh, yeah, you know, we really believe in it. But we're just here to enforce the law, there was what the fire department says. They're just an enforcement arm. And they can't really state a strong opinion on any way, because then it becomes political. And so the contracts that are always provided, they're very specific, they're like, you have to have these certifications. And you have to have, you have to do your practices in accordance with these requirements, rules and standards. So if I'm not following those standards, I can't even bid on a contract. There's contracts for landscape management, but immediately, they'll they'll go into which types of chainsaws you can use in which type of heavy equipment and what you have to do with all the debris and what you have to do. And there's really nothing to say I can't really bid on something that's existing homeowners, you know, it's a pretty small organization, if a homeowner has his area taken care of, it really doesn't reduce the risk very much. Because the risk is from the overall open space, you know, hundreds of feet and yards out to really have to take care of the overall area for to make a real change to the risk homeowners associations, that's one place. And so getting that and other type of environmental stewardship organizations like the Resource Conservation District, those are places that can come up with ways to do it. So that's really what I'm working on now on getting through. So I had my first major breakthrough and I got a grant to do a demonstration project up on Mount Palomar. So I completed that last spring and meeting with them again next week trying to get other projects going. I have several sites in San Diego that I'm negotiating with the landowners right now to try and come up with the permissions and then there are certain grants that are out there to pay for this type of stuff. Right now there's more money in the economy, like in the grantee code. on me for fire protection and forest resilience than there has ever been before the inflation Reduction Act that was legislated two years ago, that money is finally now trickling into some of the grants that are being awarded soon. So I'm keeping my eye out on certain things and hoping to start getting it done in the city. Because if I do it an hour and a half away from the city, yeah, I took visitors up there just a few days ago to show them and hopefully we'll get it done in the city, but we'll get started doing it in the city, then it will be a lot easier. And I expect it to catch on. Because there are no other solutions that I've seen that come close all the other restoration projects that I'm observing, they typically are coming in with bulldozers and removing everything that was already there and planting it new from nurseries, and then and they don't catch very well. And the way I do it, it's a lot of work up front. But I use all the existing species that are there and just creates a better habitat very, very quickly. And that can be sustained and maintained. The next step is if I get enough large enough contiguous areas, the business would be able to pay for itself just on the grazing itself. And at that point, it could be a free service to the city. past that point, what I would expect is that tables would eventually turn back to how things have been for the vast majority of human existence is that the grazing operators pay the landowners attacks to be allowed to graze on their lands, rather than how it is now that the landowners have to pay grazers salary so that they can go clean up their lands and they don't catch their house is on fire.

Jen Amos: 21:31

Yeah, you know, and just hearing you talk, I wanted to clarify what I said earlier about all the guests that I've interviewed so far, I think I think that your business has lit them with the most bureaucracy than any other mess I've had on the show. And there's just so many, like you said, there's that stone wall. And, and you've been at this for 20 years. And you know, finally, it seems like Finally, there's like a little crack in the stone wall that you made. And I also am aware that you know, this is not your full time gig like you work full time your wife works full time, like you got to feed the kids. And I'm just curious to know, how do you fit this all in? I mean, maybe that's why it took 20 years, right? But like, tell me a little bit about that and having that persistence to to make this happen and, and get that little crack in the stone wall.

Moshe Krafchow: 22:21

Well, I guess I have to stay first. If it wasn't for my family, I don't know that I could do it. Love it. I started, as I said, my basic research where I just figured out the methods and was like and not started pursuing this was around the time my daughter was born. So then it's you know, the pressure, we know gotta keep everything together. And I was a student full time and she wasn't working at the time and school ends no degree, or at least not a master's degree. I got my bachelor's degree about a year before that. And you know, to get back to work and gotta keep things Gaza, moved back down to San Diego and got a job in the ship repair industry, which is pretty much where I came from my last duty station was San Diego and I got a job in the commercial sector servicing the Navy ships. And I already knew all the processes because I was worked in the QA department and San Diego Naval Station. And then I became QA manager and accompany and I still knew some of the people that worked in the office so worked out and I've been in the ship repair industry servicing mostly Navy Coast Guard and MSc and it's said blessing to be able to make enough money to live in San Diego. And I want to have a world to pass down to my kids. Yeah, look at Spain. They're going into their fourth year of drought now San Diego are in California, we haven't seen a drought that exceeded much more than 18 months. Like yeah, we have these deep droughts, but some places in the world really see that, you know, they're they're drying out and Spain has been catching fire very frequently. They're going into their fourth year of drought. It could happen here. We could lose the entire city. I was here in 2003. I was not here in 2007. But I saw it happen. I've seen what's been happening in Northern California I used to spend a lot of time going around those woods and watching it and talking to professor's and type people how the mechanism was these forest burning watching the dying crowns of the trees and showing how that accumulation is and why we're going to get those giant fires and people told me what fires are it's never gonna happen. And this is like in 2005 2006 2007 and the drought moved up there. And in the last five years, we've been getting the massive fires in Northern California and not just broken to Northern California there in British Columbia because we've been losing cities. We lost the city of paradise. We lost the city of Lahaina we lost the city up in British Columbia. I don't remember its name. It's huge. And it's being downplayed. And it nobody feels it unless it happens to them, and it can happen to us. So yeah, if I quit my job and I can't feed my kid I'm gonna have absolutely no energy to work on trying to fix forest. So fortunately, I work from six to 30. And that gives me some time in the day. And I'll, I can get back at like three and it gives me like two business hours, torquest days cuz I gotta pick up my kids. And then as I get about, you know, one to two business hours two to three times a week and pretty much working Sundays. So the project I had up on Mount Palomar, I did it with another guy, and I did all the labor and he did all the monitoring, and we did all the plotting by GIS and the report. So the two of us finished that project. So I have an actual paid project at a good level. So I can have proof of prior performance as several other things I did not as paid projects, they don't count to anybody. I found that out of nowhere, like volunteer stuff, none of that counts, gotta get paid for it. So I got paid for one. So hopefully, I get paid for more. And then as it starts to have pay, and you can put certain, like jEdit written in I've got arborists, letters about my work, I've got a whole lot of demonstration sites. So I'm hoping that this will become my full time job, I just need to have a large enough project. And I've got several of them in the pipeline that if they get approved, I would be able to turn in my notice and very thankful for my job now. And it's really keeping me going. And I'll be really moving on to the next level when I can turn in my notice and, and have a large enough project where I can hire some people and start doing and get continuous projects, because a lot can be done very quickly. getting in and getting it done is the only thing that's going to work.

Jen Amos: 26:48

Yeah, and I think you're you're playing it really smart, because it's not like you're a bachelor, and you can do this full time. And, you know, like just eat Top Ramen or something to survive. Like, to me, it sounds like your family has been a driving force for you to like be as well balanced as possible and make time for this new issue that you're incredibly, you know, passionate and knowledgeable about. And so I think that in a way, it's gone the pace that it needed to go for you to have a good work life balance and time with family. And you know, now that you got that first, you know, paid contractor will work. And it sounds like now that's like the one thing you can add to your portfolio and hopefully, hopefully slowly and surely, a domino effect will happen as a result of that. Ah,

Moshe Krafchow: 27:36

yes, I like to think of it more as growth. Yes, very much. So I learned very early on not to take setbacks, or really not to believe anything till it happens. As I said, when I first started, I just made so much sense. I the first area that I worked with so rotten there just there was blackberry bushes growing through everything there is mold throughout there is dead trees of all kinds. And it's just like this mud puddle. And I cleaned this whole channel out. And in the springtime is the first time skunk cabbages came shooting up through the duff layer that it sunk points were almost six feet thick, and they shot they bolted up through and they they put these broad leaves out over that duff layer that the water would go through and several layers of leaves are out and then those bottom leaves died and they turn into this black material. And next thing I know I'd have stream a running stream running across the hill where it was there. And I was just so excited. I'd like to show people's like, like I there's been all my expectations of what I was going to be able to do in a few short months with a piece of land that was so heavily disturbed. And there was this one environmental activist that came from the climate said and he was working on the the Klamath River and the salmon runs for years and years, he came talking to the university talking about all the different things that they were doing. And at the end, I asked him so about how do you evaluate overall forest health and nutrition and like to look at nutritional health like actual raw nutritional output of the forest and all forms? Do you really count that when you're looking at forest health? And he said no, they never really thought of it in those terms. never really considered it. So, you know, come out to my experiment site that I have a couple and no let's talk you know, hopefully I can help you know, work with you guys and in the Klamath River. And he came over and he looked at it and he was so excited. And he was like Wow, I've never seen anything like this. I've been doing this for 30 years. I see exactly what you're talking about this great this works. Let you know we'll get back together and do something. The next week died of a heart attack.

Jen Amos: 29:55

Oh my goodness. Wow.

Moshe Krafchow: 29:57

That was my first big Rush was disappointments. That was my first major success. Like it was just like a miracle went from this nasty mud puddle to this flowing stream. And the first guy that I bring out there that's been doing this for 30 years. It's like all excited, and then gone. And I didn't, you know, sometimes I get people that are really excited and say, oh, yeah, this is excellent. But I don't have what it takes to help. Or people that seem to have everything that it takes self logon to be like, well, I can't really get involved with this. So I've had hundreds and hundreds of different interactions, some better, some worse. Most people when they see it, they get it. The people who look at it and say, No, this is wrong are few and far between, you know, one in 1000, at most, but most people don't know how to implement it. So yeah, everything starts with one. So that you know a lot of free demonstrations is to get people to look and try and getting people to look and get enough people to work, I was able to get, you know, a free demonstration it did for the county, but they were all nervous that I was going to take some benefits from it. And they first I had a professor at UCSD, who wrote the county letter to support my proposal saying that his Institute was going to be involved with the project. But then the professor have got a $2 million grant to do something with supercomputer and they no longer had time. So they never showed up. And I finished that whole project with workshops and volunteers just trying to prove to the county that how this can work. And it can and it can happen at the end of the project I sent in the river and I sent all the information and the feedback that I got was, oh, well, our biologists think that this is this is a great approach. And it's a real win win for everyone. But what was the university involvement? I don't see the university involvement in the report, Mike. And so then I kind of had to explain that they just didn't show up. But you know, we did it and and they wouldn't read, they wouldn't allow me to continue without a bonafide academic presence. And if I don't have money, no academics are interested. So they say, oh, yeah, this looks great. But we can't sanction this unless you're part of a university. But I still have it as you know, my past experience through that experiences, you know, I deepen my relationship with resource conservation district. And they saw my work. And during that whole process, I had them involved in monitoring it. So eventually, that led for them, finding grant funding for me to do my current project up on Palomar. So things lead to one another. And I think you're very right. As far as what you're saying that, you know, maybe the world wasn't quite ready, the fire risk wasn't great enough, people weren't losing their insurance. So I think that the need is growing and necessity dictates, yeah, hoping that the necessity is strong enough that people will start doing what seems to me like just 100% common sense. If you don't start with basic hygiene, none of the fancy stuff is gonna make any sense.

Jen Amos: 32:58

Yeah, yeah, it sounds to me, it's kind of trying to find the right place, right time. And staying prepared, staying ready. Because like you said, or not, like you said, but you just never know, when the opportunity will come. And now that they're creating more awareness around the issue, this could be your opportunity, you know, and, and I just, I just want to commend you, for all the knows that have come your way, essentially, all these all these moments that almost seemed like you were going to, you know, have that opportunity. And then, you know, something happens, I just want to commend you for your persistence, your resilience. And I really hope that you know, the industry moves in your favor, because as you said, it seems like it's starting to look that way, slowly and surely. Ah, yeah,

Moshe Krafchow: 33:45

I thought of quitting a few times. But then I realized that I am myself when I can't quit that. And this is, I mean, this is my own personal development, and there's really nowhere for me to run from it. I see what's out there, and I see what to do about it. And there's just nowhere I can go, that's going to change that. There have been times where I did nothing for eight or nine months. And, you know, earlier on when I first got my, you know, been working, I just work sometimes, you know, on a little bit of something and then not and I life takes over. But more and more recently, I've had a lot more to do and yeah, so yeah, I've got series of meetings set up moving forward. About three years ago, I was going to the Society of American military engineer meetings, which is chaired by the commander of naval facilities Southwest and so we've had all the Navy facilities type people in environmental, so meet them I met the commander of naval facilities after a series of meetings and talking to him about what I'm doing because two bases in San Diego Miramar and Camp Pendleton had a lot of catastrophic wildfire problem and And as far as I'm concerned, it's also a security risk. It's a security risk for multiple reasons. One, if there's a major fire that itself is a security risk to facilities, and it reduces the ability in Pendleton to for live fire exercises often that they have to restrict themselves due to wildfire conditions. But it's also a security risk because it's where vagrants can hide and sometimes people cut the fences and, and infiltrate bases that way. So I mean, it's just it's a physical security concern. And there's lots of young soldiers and sailors that would be really easy to train. So kind of talking to him about how and what I'm doing and how it works. And one point is really funny how this came down. Somebody from the Rosi network emailed me said, Hey, I saw this, this opportunity might interest you. And I sent it to me, and it was an industry day announced by naval facilities in Balboa Park. So I looked at that, and it was for people mainly, it's for people in industry that have something to sell to the government that the government's aren't asking for. Because again, as St. Paul, they put in our cues for environmental management, then they wanted to do it in accordance with all these standards. So I'm telling you, you're never going to ask for what I'm offering, how do I offer this to you. And I've tried to go through the unsolicited proposal process with naval facilities years earlier, and that ended up nowhere. So I get this announcement that was forwarded to me, and I was like, well, this, this looks great. I'll go, I went to the meeting, to the industry day, and I talked to the different contracts folks and whatnot. And the commander of naval facilities pulled me sorry, says it's, it's you and one other guy that were asking me, you know, you're never going to ask for my thing, which prompted me to do this, this event. So everybody here really needs to thank you for this. However, we can't be your first customer. Now my Yeah, we're too big of a company, you're an individual, there's just absolutely no possible way that we can be your first customer. And the stuff that I did volunteer obviously doesn't count for that. So he said, You need to have to proof of prior performance. And then we could talk. So I'm sure he's rotated since but the next commander of naval facilities is is again going to be the chair of the ASME group. And it's a very consistent group. So hopefully, I get one next contract. And I could approach naval facilities again, and naval facilities, zones, more land than any single entity in San Diego County, and they've got lots of workforce. And that's the type of spark that can really make change. If we could get Miramar on Camp Pendleton to clean themselves up. You bet all the rich people on the mansions on the canyons that are about to go up in flames are gonna want some of that too.

Jen Amos: 37:35

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm just observing your tenacity. And also, I like how you said, like, I'm going to be who I'm going to be like, I could quit, you know, there are times where I'll take months off. But this is a form of personal development for you, you know, too much to not do it. And I don't think I'm going to sit here and say, you know, my best wishes, it's more like, I just want to recognize the effort, the continual effort and persistence that you're putting into this, because I think anyone else in your situation probably would have given up by now, you know, and so yeah, so I'm really just here to observe, like, you know, and hear your story. And I really appreciate everything that you've shared so far, and all the attempts that you've made to get these opportunities, only four, oh, but we don't want to be your first client go by, you know, like, you need to be associated with the university. It's the fact that you just keep going at it anyway, I can't think of names off the top of my head, but from what I know, actually, when I think of like Ray Kroc, either Ray Kroc with McDonald's, and all the rejection, he went through for the majority of his life, to eventually, you know, come across the McDonald's and be the successful, you know, franchise franchise entrepreneurs today, it took a long time to get there. And I'm associating you with that, you know, I'm thinking like, your journey, is it still going? It's not done? And my hope for you, although I don't, I don't think it's really hope I should give. It's more like, I feel like you're very pragmatic about this at this point. But I, you know, clearly, this is an issue that, you know, you won't go to sleep at night until you see some movement and to even get your first client, your first paid contract, I think is is something to be, you know, optimistic about, I would say, so yeah, I think the last thing I want to share or the last thing I want to ask of you our call to actions, let's wrap up with like call to actions and you know, what could be helpful for you, in case anyone listens and could help? What would that look like for you to continue to move along? Tree culture?

Moshe Krafchow: 39:36

Ah, I guess clients really is the thing. The most difficult thing is permission. I don't own land. I can't do it on my land. I need to do it on other people's lands that other people have land that's next to other jurisdictions, city water district school district, but this is part of what makes it so difficult that the land is all broken up into these and everything's about permission. When I was going after this grant that I got from the RCD from, I had a lot of different places that I had in mind that couldn't be great here would be great. They're all places in and around the city, or problem always came down to, there was always like somebody that would need to give their permission. And they're going to ask a lot of questions. And it's just, it's taking too long. And so the site that I actually got the project on was owned by a single individual. And that single individual was really excited about what I'm doing. And she gave me permission, and we got written permission that yes, I can. So then I had full permission, then I was able to get the contract. So clients, that's really the big thing. If I and I really need to focus on San Diego County, people that are involved in organizations, institutions, it could be industrial, it could be residential, there just need to be trees, if there's trees, and it's like outside 100 feet, and there's like tree area, there's what that can be done. And it's going to be about getting it done bit by bit and moving through and and I don't know another way, but yeah, the one thing I need the most is clients.

Jen Amos: 41:08

Yeah, so when you see trees think of Moshe Bucha, to come up with like a slogan or something to help with that message.

Moshe Krafchow: 41:17

Of the long stretches along the highways when I drive down. I was always there's always food that's not being eaten.

Jen Amos: 41:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, Moshe, I think this was a very educational conversation today, I want to thank you for bringing awareness for what you do. And you know, just again, kudos to you and like fight, like just persisting with the bureaucracy and the red tape and the constant of asking permission and getting all the nose. I think that my hope for you is that your tenacity will pay off in a great way. Because big problem, simple solution, great opportunity. And my hope for you is that you continue to persist at it, because clearly, it's a problem that has been given to you to solve, we just need to get the right we just need to get the yeses, you know. And so that's my hope for you.

Moshe Krafchow: 42:04

Well, thank you, Jen. I really appreciate speaking with you, and I appreciate you scheduling that time to hear me out. I'm very appreciative, the Rosie network and service to CEO. They've been really there for me at times that I still needed them, and ever thankful to that team. And yeah, hi. I'm very grateful to be here.

Jen Amos: 42:28

Awesome. Well, thank you for your time. And thank you for being here and to our listeners, and we hope you'll reach out and with that said, thanks for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Till next time