096: Getting back to deeper connections by knowing when it’s a good time to call loved ones with Matthew Shanks

Unknown Speaker 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome

Jen Amos 0:01

back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your host, Jen emos, a veteran spouse and goldstar daughter, I'm flying solo today, Jenny Lynn, unfortunately, couldn't make it. But that's okay. Because I'd like to believe that I can still strike up compelling conversations. And with that said, I am really excited because I have been talking with this individual for some time now really talking about an app that he had created and moreso just his story. So let me go ahead and bring him on. We have Matthew Shanks, who is a military spouse, former pro triathlete, and now entrepreneur, he is the founder of covi. So Matthew, welcome to the show.

Unknown Speaker 0:39

Hello, thank you for having me.

Unknown Speaker 0:41

Yeah.

Jen Amos 0:42

ion. It's a new year, how has: 2021

Speaker 1 0:48

2021 has been a complete whirlwind because we've just launched the app on January 20. So it was really just non stop working to get it going and trying to bring on new users. And in addition to all of that, my wife was at captain's career course. So rather than stay at home that for her when alone without daycare, with a now 18 month old, I went to the east coast to stay with my parents to get help with childcare during that time. So it's been a crazy year so far.

Jen Amos 1:21

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, it sounds like a lot is going on for you. And kudos to your parents for you know, wanting to watch your child. I know for me, I don't have kids yet. But I know one of the first things I want to do when I do have kids is probably fly my mom out here or something because I made a funny deal with her because like, I'm one of three kids. But I think my mom believes that I'm the only one that's going to have kids. And I told her I said, Mom, if I have a kid, you're gonna raise it for the first couple of years. Are you okay with that? And because she's like, so dying to be a grandma. So she was like, Yes, like, I will do that, like I will retire. Okay.

Speaker 1 1:57

It is so hard to get much done without any help. And daycare with COVID has been nearly impossible to get. So the only way I've been surviving the past few months is from help from my mom.

Jen Amos 2:10

Yeah. Well shout out to mom, because I'm sure if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't be able to talk today.

Speaker 1 2:15

Yeah, yes. She's got him right now. She flew out to California when we came back here to help for a month.

Jen Amos 2:21

Awesome. Awesome. I love it. Awesome. So you already hinted early on in our conversation, Matthew, that at the start of the year, in addition to all the interesting things that has happened, you created an app or you launched your app. And so the app is covi. And so one of our initial conversations, Matthew was through COVID and ascend. And we'll get into more. So the the details of it. But before we really get into the app itself, tell us what led you to starting an app such as covi.

Speaker 1 2:47

Yeah, it came from kind of the perfect storm of a lot of different things. So we live in Fort Irwin, who's been here for almost three years now. And COVID, obviously had a big impact on that. So in daycare closed, I was trying to do a lot of things around Levi's schedule, and he was six months old at the time of March last year, and kids that age don't really have schedules. So and my wife's a nurse, so she works crazy hours all the time. And then in addition to being a stay at home Dad, I was coaching triathletes full time. So that's a remote job where I communicate mostly through texting emails, and an online platform where I write the schedules and take notes and stuff like that. And so with the business, I have a lot of clients that need to talk to me, and I didn't want to just be on my computer or texting them while I had my son home, because then I'm not talking he doesn't get any engagement. I'm just ignoring him. Yes, awful. But there are a lot of times when we're just like playing on the floor with some Legos or whatnot. And I could be on the phone. But I couldn't schedule those times. And so I wanted a way to be able to let people know, both for my business of triathlon coaching. And just socially, when I was in the mood to talk just to like, passively invite them, if it's a good time for them know that they're welcome to call me. So that's really what it is, in a nutshell, coming from both the social need of wanting to connect with people and being a stay at home dad, and then also needing to connect with clients on a flexible schedule.

Jen Amos 4:36

Yeah, I think that that's an incredible story of, I mean, just wanting that kind of connection with people and letting people know when you're available. You know, you and I were talking a lot about this offline. And even I actively have a friend right now where I'm trying to play phone tag with and saying, hey, like, Are you free today or you're not free today. Even if we do have a time where we are free. You know, I had a long day. I'm tired. I don't want to On the phone, you know, and it just become culturally acceptable to play phone tag or to try to like schedule in advance if you're lucky. And I went as far as like sharing, like, you know, normally where my work meetings, I'll share like a scheduling link like I did with you to schedule a time to talk to me, I started doing that with my friends to I was like, hey, like, this is my off hours, like schedule time, which no one has ever taken up, by

Speaker 2 5:23

the way, just like way too professional, apparently, they still want to text me to see if I'm free. Or they'll

Jen Amos 5:29

call me out of the blue. But one thing I find most interesting about your app and what you're trying to accomplish. Matthew is, you know, there's a description here that you shared with me, that got me thinking, you know, if we can't directly connect with the people we want to care about, we are more likely to scroll on social media, you know, we're more likely I mean, of course, there has to be a whole study behind this. But I find for myself, when I'm thinking of someone that I haven't spoken to in a while, like, I'll look them up online. And, you know, I think it's very common knowledge, just the mental health effects or impacts of just scrolling on social media and how negative it can actually be. And it sounds like in a way, what you're doing with this app is to eradicate or to combat part of that, you know, combat or prevent people from rather than scrolling on social media to, you know, check the COVID app to see if someone is available and have a conversation with them. Right?

Speaker 1 6:21

Absolutely. It's pretty common knowledge now, especially with the social dilemma, or what video

Jen Amos 6:29

documentary, the social

Speaker 1 6:30

documentary, yeah, without coming out recently, everybody's kind of aware of this social impact of how it's really negatively impacting people like, it's based on addiction model. It's not based on trying to get you connected to your friends in a healthy way. It's based on getting you stuck on the app at whatever costs necessary, which is usually aggravating some primal emotions of anger, or whatever,

Jen Amos 7:01

or jealousy or FOMO, or Yeah, any negative feeling.

Speaker 1 7:06

Any negative feeling is the addictive ones that get you on the app, and have you watching more ads, which they make money off of. So I wanted a way where we can actually connect with people when we want to. And so like you said, normally when you're thinking of somebody, and you have a small gap of time, since you have no idea who wants to talk to you, and you don't want to interrupt people, and it's too much work to schedule things out, like you've got 20 minutes, right now, you're going to default to scrolling social media. And with covi. On a basic level, I want that 20 minutes to be replaced with talking to somebody one on one. And right now, you can't do that, because you don't know who wants to talk to you. So if you just call somebody, there's a good chance that you're calling out a bad time, it doesn't matter if they say, call me anytime. Because when somebody tells you call me anytime you know that there's a high probability that that's going to be at a bad time. So even though they're trying to be welcoming and saying, like I'm available to you, they're not because you don't want to be a bother. So if covi by intentionally making yourself available specifically to who you want to be available to those people know that they are welcome to call you and they're not going to be bothering you. And that's another important part about COVID is most apps that have some sort of available or online indicator, it's not intentional, it's just like you touched your phone recently, just because you are on Instagram, doesn't mean you want me to be texting or calling you like it just means you touched your phone. And then even on apps where you can intentionally say I'm available, you're saying you're available to all of your contacts. And rarely is that the case like when I'm washing my dishes, I would love to talk to one of my best friends or one of my close family members. Like I'm just staring at a wall, I would much rather be on FaceTime. And when my son goes down for a nap, I want to be available for one of my coaching clients. Because that's focused time that I can dedicate to work. And I don't want to be having a casual conversation about nothing with a friend at that time. And so that's what COBie does, it lets you mark yourself intentionally available just to who you want to be available to. Yeah,

Jen Amos 9:29

I know in the app, the term is circles, right? So in circles, circles, what you can do is group let's say your friends, group, your clients, group, your colleagues, I mean, whatever you want to label it, those are just some examples that come to mind for me. And I really like that. And I feel like it's funny because the only people who would message me and say like, oh, but I saw you were available on social media is more so of like Generation X, like the ones who use Generation X and Millennials are the older millennials where they were used to, let's say, aim, or AOL. It was a Stand for anyway, I totally forgot.

Unknown Speaker: 10:01

America Online.

Jen Amos: 10:03

America Online and then Americans. Messenger messenger. Okay, yeah, we just called it aim, right? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker: 10:08

well, I am or.

Jen Amos: 10:12

Yeah. And so for the youngins, which I don't, you know, for the most part, I haven't had like a Generation Z or a young millennial like asked about this yet, but at least for most of our listeners, they're still very familiar with aim, or aim. And you know, when that green light was on, you knew that someone was intentionally, you know, on AOL, and you're able to chat with them. And I remember those days where it's like, oh, so and so's online, I'm going to go ahead and message them. And we would talk for hours, you know, but now when you see that, like you mentioned, like, if I see that on, let's say, Facebook Messenger, like, my friend could just have their computer on, you know, and therefore, it seems like they're on but they're really not on. And so even for myself, I don't like everyone knowing that I'm on. So I always turn that off. I always say like, Oh, just always make it look like I'm inactive. Because I don't want people to know that I'm that available. Right, right. But with something like covi. I really like that concept of like creating the circles to tell specific people, you know, what your availability is like?

Unknown Speaker: 11:06

Yeah, definitely.

Jen Amos: 11:08

So Matthew, there are people that are like, you know, what, I'm tired of playing phone tag, I'm tired of, you know, trying to figure out what someone is free. I don't want to bother people. How do I get started with COVID? That sounds like a great idea. How do I get started?

: 11:23

Yeah. So first of all, we've made covi extremely simple to use, such that it can be used by all generations, because I want to be using it with my parents, wondering if I get my grandma, she's maybe not going to be on that ad. But but it is, it is super simple to use by basically anybody who has a smartphone. So you can get it from the App Store. Right now it is for iOS only iPhones or iPads. We're working super hard to get it to Android. But we need to get more growth first before we can fund the Android development. But yeah, download it from the App Store. And then it's really easy to get signed up, all you do is log in with your phone number sends you a verification code, super simple, like most of the apps out there now, create a user name. And that's about it. Once you're in the app, you just invite a few contacts. The way it works is it syncs with your phonebook, it does not automatically just like invite everybody in your phonebook. It just lists like the people who are in your phonebook and you can individually hit invite, and then it'll bring up a prompt to send them a text message, you can edit that text message if you want, and hit send. And then they are invited. It's that simple. And then you can organize your contacts into the different circles. And you can toggle yourself available, you can make yourself available to all your contacts, or just specific circles, if you want to do that. COVID is an app where you really aren't intended to add a lot of context. Most apps are designated to like get as many followers and connections and whatever as you can. It's all like popularity based basically. And I think that's a huge stressor, maybe not for everybody. But for people in small business, I feel like that's a constant stress for at least because we're trying to build an audience. And it's just always nagging at you that like, you have to get more views on things. You want more likes and follows and, and all that with covi. It's the complete opposite, like COVID is meant for the people who you talk to either who you already talked to regularly, or for those friends who wish you kept in touch with better but don't because of all the inconveniences of scheduling and phone tag and bothering people at bad times with cold calls. So I usually recommend people invite like 10 contacts, the 10 people they talk to the most and wish they kept up with better, and then maybe up to like 50 or so. But you don't need to be inviting an entire few 100 people in your phone books.

Jen Amos: 13:59

Yeah, you know, there's something that is kind of like a breath of fresh air. I feel relieved and knowing that because you're right. You know, when it comes to social media, typical social media apps, it's all about the likes. It's all about the impressions, the exposure, the shares, it's really about popularity, right? It's like a popularity contest. And that is very stressful. Because if you put a post I mean, I have I have had friends that told me that if they didn't receive a certain amount of likes for their photo, they would take it down, you know. And so sad. It's very sad.

: 14:33

I totally get it. That's me too. It's just that constant pressure of being judged. You've got this content that's out there. And even when you like, in your mind, you're like, I just wanted to share this with friends, because it's out there. And because it's getting those likes, you're inherently being judged on it. And like even when you try to like push that aside and be like, I don't care, I'm not all about that. It's still there and it's a constant effort to like not care about it. And when we first came up with covi, I was thinking of that kind of as like a new social media based off of like actually talking to people. But I had the idea of like having a basic profile on there. And we don't really have that now, because I didn't want any thing left on the app all the time. So like every other app, you have this curated presence that's out there all the time to be judged. And so you always have this feeling of I need to, like, maintain my presence. And that weighs on me on the other platform. So if covi there's nothing there when you're not on like, like people can add you as a contact. But there's, there's no away message to that's like one of the things we've debated a lot as there's available status, but there's no unavailable status. And, and maybe we'll add that in on time. But the thought is, when I'm here, when I'm available to you, I can say like, I'm washing the dishes, call me if you'd like to hang out. That's my passive invitation to you to call me. But when I'm, let's say, at the beach, I don't want to be able to say I'm at the beach, I'm having a great time, my life is awesome. And I'm too busy, too special to talk to you. That's kind of a weird way to phrase it. But that's how it ends up coming out. Because when you're putting on this away message, you're constantly projecting your life out to others. And therefore it's an opportunity to judge yourself against others kind of. And so I don't want you to go on COVID and be like, oh, All my friends are doing these amazing things. They're all at the beach, they're all doing these cool jobs or hanging out with their kids. They're doing all these great things, and I just want to talk to them, but none of them are available. I think that's none of your business. Like if you're if you're having a great time, great. I don't care.

Unknown Speaker: 16:58

You're available

: 16:59

on cofee, it just tells you like when somebody wants to talk to you. That's all that matters really. So yeah, it's it's trying to bring back like personal connections with people who want to talk when they want to talk.

Jen Amos: 17:11

Yeah, again, that's just a breath of fresh air for me, because I just think about even since the start of the pandemic, I mean, at first, it was interesting, like, all my friends and family wanted to stay in touch on a weekly basis, like Sundays, or Fridays would be like our day where we would all catch up and stuff. But, you know, life gets busy, and things get hard and people start to close off, or they're preoccupied. And you know, despite me wanting to reach out and letting them know that I'm here, it's difficult. And it's a lot, you know, but to have something such as COVID, which again, I really like the concept of it, because I think it's healthy to a certain extent to want to be judged on social media, but we need to have a good balance of you know, wanting that actual quality relationship with people. And so I really like just the simplicity of COVID. And it's just saying, Hey, I'm available. I like the whole idea, like wide and add like you're not available, because like you said he would probably give off that, Oh, I'm too good for you. I'm having an amazing life. You would be lucky if I was available.

Unknown Speaker: 18:11

But I was also conscious, but it's still there.

Jen Amos: 18:14

Yeah. So I just really liked that whole idea of like, Hey, I'm free right now, I can't go to sleep. Give me a call, right? Like, I definitely have had friends where they're like, Oh, you know, like, I wanted to call you but like, you know, with the time difference, because I'm East Coast, and a lot of my friends or West Coast are like, Oh, I was like, I was up at like, 10:10pm. And I know, it was like 1am there's Why don't want to bother you. And I was like, I was like, Man, I'm a night owl. I was up at 1am. You know, but to be able to like, again, going back to the the whole concept of your app to be like, Well, actually, I am available, you can call me. I really appreciate that. And I also sort of like the exclusivity of like, hey, like, you're my friend, I want you to know when I'm with our client, right? You know, for you, like whenever this, you know, blue icon is on or shows that I'm available. Like that's when you can call me like there's that there's sort of that, you know, exclusivity in a way and that that kind of feeling extra special knowing that like, Okay, this is the window, you know that you're available. I am curious to know, though, like, if someone does call you that, does that availability notification turned off? Or like how does that Okay, okay.

: 19:15

Yeah, yeah, that that's definitely a key component because once somebody calls you, then you're not available anymore. So that that needs to be on there. A good way to think of it is on the business side. You think of it like a virtual office hour, marking yourself available on COVID to your clients tells them that your office door is open. When one person walks in that door, it closes and when you leave to go take a break from work or whatever or leave for the day it closes. So you have the opportunity to close the door and open it whenever you want. And then like the social example is you're like eating lunch at a table by yourself. Like when you're open to your friends like talking to you. It's not just One friend that you want to talk to, it's like anyone have a certain category of friends, basically, any of those friends, you'd be happy to have them join you for lunch. If they only knew that you're eating lunch alone, right now, you don't want to schedule that you don't want to like, make them feel pressured to join you, you just want to let them know that you're there. So it's like seats open first person who sits down and takes it. And if I've finished lunch and walkway too late, catch me next time. And I think that's a good way to understand why this works better than texting people. That's our biggest hurdle right now is when I talk to people about COVID. They get it, usually, but then they invite their friends. And they see Oh, notifications when you're free. Well just text me. Like everybody just says, Just call me if you want to talk to me just text me. They're not being open minded to like, the possibility for better. And so I'm trying to like combat all the reasons of why just text me doesn't work. And first of all, just text me doesn't work. The proof for that is how many friends you have that when you see say, hey, let's catch up sometime, and then ever happens. And when you text somebody starts phone tag, and you don't you don't talk to them.

Jen Amos: 21:16

You know, that reminds me of when like, I would have people say like, Oh, we got to catch up soon. Like, I miss you. And then like nothing ever happens here. You just like what was that? Like, if you didn't mean it? Don't say it anyway, that's what that reminded me of.

: 21:30

Yeah. And I think the intentions are there. I think when people say like, Let's catch up soon. I think they mean it. But it's not important. So like, when when you have an important business call to make you schedule it, and then it happens. But when you tell your friend, hey, schedule this call with me on calendly they're like, I'm not gonna schedule a social call for no good reason. Like it hasn't been I'm gonna like schedule. Hey, Jen, I'm gonna be washing my dishes tonight at 8:30pm. Mike, can we have a calendly hangout? time? Like, no, it's not important enough. But, but like, it's still really good for your mental health and your soul for talking to people. And so yeah, that's what COVID does. And I'm like, the texting thing. When you text somebody, hey, let's talk like I'm about to wash the dishes. I can text you and say, do you want to call me? But then I can only text you Really? Like once I've texted you. I've told you there's an invitation open to you. And I have to keep that open. So I can't immediately text another person or five people to say like any of you on a call, because then they might all call me and I can't answer five phone calls. Or the other thing is kind of like that passive invitation. So when I'm sitting at my lunch table, virtual lunch table alone, if I tell you hey, do you if I directly I text you or call you, Hey, will you eat lunch with me? That's a lot of pressure. It's not passive. It's very direct. It's saying like, I'm here all alone. You better sit down with me.

Unknown Speaker: 23:04

I need you. I need you.

: 23:07

So if you really, really do need your friend like Yes, just call them. It's important. And they'll call you back you'll you'll make it happen. But for the casual conversation, it's not a high pressure. And so you don't want to start this the waiting game of I texted you and I gotta wait for you to reply. I'm like, now I'm like locked into waiting for your reply indefinitely. Yeah, until like, half an hour goes by. It's like, uh, is she gonna respond or not?

Jen Amos: 23:36

Like, just that feeling of neglect, right? It's like, like, I'll text someone I say, Hey, are you free? Like, I really need someone to talk to and then a day or two or three goes by and you're just like, like, I can't even depend on you, you know, but it's unfair to put that pressure on someone right to kind of a very last minute like, hey, I need you. It's like, no, reality is y'all like, No one is here for your beck and call, you know, you got you know, however, we can still set our loved ones up for success, like having something such as this, right? As opposed to like, yeah, there's just that pressure of like, Hey, I'm free. And then you're kind of just left in limbo. And like, right, you got to kind of keep yourself available until you hear from them if you hear from them. And then there's that whole mental game you have in your head like, do they love me? Like, are they you know, what is it about me? Like, are they busy? And yeah, it's it's not good.

: 24:27

It's not good. And from their standpoint, it's applying unnecessary pressure on them. So you're like, Hey, you want to hang out virtually over FaceTime golf. They have to tell you yes or no, basically, like, they can't ignore you for three days. But that's not great. They probably don't want to do that. And so if they're busy, or they don't feel like talking, they have to tell you that directly. They feel like they have to respond. And basically, anytime you text somebody they're going to reply with an excuse and that sucks, I don't think it's necessary. I've seen a lot of things on social media lately saying no is a complete sentence or whatever. And that's kind of how I feel about inviting somebody to talk to me. Like if I say, Hey, I'm hanging out on my front porch, I'm waving smiling at you. Like, if you want to stop by great, if you don't, I don't care. I do a little bit. But I don't want to know the reason like, I understand you're busy, I understand you might not be in the mood. Like if you don't want to stop by fine. Like, go on your way. Like, that's okay, like somebody else might. But I don't want our relationship to be judged against what other things you're doing. So I text you and say, Hey, john, you want to talk? And you say, No, I've got this meeting, I've got to do this with this other friend, I got to wash my dishes, or whatever it is you're doing, then I'm like, Well, you could talk to me while you're doing the dishes, or why are you talking to that friend instead of me? Like, are they better? Like, it puts this unnecessary judgment and so like, that's another reason why texting isn't as good because a person has to reply with an excuse of what they're doing. That's more important than talking to you, even though that's not really meant. Because they don't want to just say no, I don't want to talk to you that they have to give an excuse, which is a judgement.

Jen Amos: 26:18

Yeah, even if they give an excuse at all, I think we are very much in a ghosting culture, where sometimes it's just easier to say nothing, right? And yeah, you say something, you have to make it sound extravagant. Like, Oh, I can't make it because, oh, my mental health is really important for me right now. And I really need this time to myself, which I believe you could just say no. Okay, thanks for reminding me that, like you are more important than me, or I'm not a priority. But again, it's not good to give them that pressure, right to be like, hey, like, you know, there has to be a better way. And I just have to say, like, I feel relieved that you created an app like this, and I hope to see it succeed. I want to see it succeed. Because I feel like it's really bringing back the old traditional way of just having quality relationships, having like genuine, like quality time with people and being present with people and not like not falling privy to the social media, like, look at my life. I'm so busy, I don't have time for you. And yet, you know, depression has skyrocketed. You know, insecurities have skyrocketed, loneliness, like all these things have skyrocketed, like something about social media. As we know, if you've watched the social dilemma, it's almost as if social media has made us more antisocial, in a sense. And so it's great to know that it's possible to create new technology. In this case, you're really being bold to say, hey, like, we can steps aside from all that we can step aside from just this picture as kind of persona that you're putting online. And when I'm available, just give me a call, or you know, when I'm available, and you're available, just give me a call, and let's just be human beings, let's just talk to each other as human beings. And I like that that's like, I don't know, it's, again, I keep saying it's a breath of fresh air, because it is like, it's like, I personally have been very hungry for connection, you know, offline, like, especially those late nights when I wish I could talk to someone, but I don't want to bother people, as you mentioned. And so to know that something like this exists, I really want to follow your journey, Matthew and see what we can do as a community to, you know, bring more awareness to this.

: 28:20

Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, it's such a simple app and how it works. But I think when I had the idea for it, I was just amazed that it didn't exist already. Because basically, our phones allow us to call or message anybody we want, anytime we want. But no app right now really lets you know, who wants to receive a call or who wants to be contacted? And that's like, appalling that there's Yeah, we're in this like, permission culture of like, making sure you're respecting people's boundaries. But there's no way for people to say like my doors open, I'm welcoming a call from you. And so now rather than at all being one way of only the person, like reaching out, now you can like have somebody invite one of their friends to reach out to them. So it's taking the pressure that used to be only on one party, and now letting people meet in the middle.

Jen Amos: 29:14

Fantastic, Matthew. Well, let's talk about some action steps. How can we help you? How can we help you How can we you know, continue to grow this? You know, shout out to Christina with the it's a military life. I guess that's how you heard of me. Yeah, that's doing a Facebook Live a shout out to her. I know that you're currently working with the veterans pen pal project to make this possible. But yeah, let let us know like, how can we help you and what's currently happening right now to make this COBie app possible?

: 29:37

Yeah, lots of things are happening right now. We are partnering with different groups and programs trying to allow COVID to facilitate different programs such as veteran pen pal project where veterans and the pen pal volunteers wanted an option to not only write letters, but to also be able to video call or do regular audio calls with each other and so COVID making that possible. But as far as other people getting involved, the best thing you can do is download the app and use it. I need I need advocates for it, people trying it and then getting testimonies for it. So try it out, invite your friends, and really take a stance against our biggest hurdle right now of why don't you just text me, I don't have a one sentence reply for that. And so it really takes a community understanding that to fight that problem with me, because they're 20 reasons of why just text me or just call me when you need me or call me anytime. Those don't work. Yeah, and people don't realize it. And until I figured out how to condense the message shorter, I really need a community of people using that and advocating for it, so that we can reach that threshold of broader understanding and use for people on Android. I don't want you to feel left out. It was not intentional of I like iPhone, people. I don't like Android people. It wasn't any of that at all. It's really, really expensive to build apps. And that's taken pretty much all of our savings, which is insanely stressful right now. But yeah, I just couldn't build both apps at the same time. And so we need to get some traction on the iPhone version before we can find the Android version. But you can be involved by following us on social media, where on Instagram, and I have a tick tock and Facebook, all of those are at covi app. It's kayo VI, and you can find us on Kofi calm and join our newsletter. There, you can get all the updates as we do work on coming to Android. And just when you hear people whether you're on an iPhone or an Android, when you hear people complaining about phone tag, or not being able to connect with people when you want to, or frustrations about social media mentioned covi. I created this app because I needed it as an isolated and lonely military spouse staying at home with nobody to talk to you. Yet lots of time, just at random different times throughout the day. And as a business owner, like I knew the need for it, and it doesn't do much good unless we get it out to people. So yeah, I think we can do great things as far as decreasing rates of loneliness, depression, and even suicide, which we talk about awareness all the time yet. What are we actually doing about it? We just say, oh, like support each other reach out to your strong friends, like, like we say all these nice things, but they're not actionable. Yeah. Because all the reasons we've already said, Hey, we need a better way to support each other and better friendships and COVID can do that.

Jen Amos: 32:56

Yeah. You know, going back to what you said, as we wrap up here, and when people say like, you know, just text me, I am was it just reminds you of when I said earlier, like oh, we should hang out sometime, you know, like you said, it seems like on the surface, like you care and you're willing and you know, the intention is there, but it's almost an excuse. It's almost a way to delay, you know, an actual conversation with someone I think and so, rather than list all of the reasons why it's hard to connect with people, which you know, it's very easy for all of us to do. Let's talk about what is possible instead. And so, again, you know, Matthew, I just want to applaud you for like