111: "Healing comes from finding meaning and purpose in the loss." Pregnancy & Infant Loss Awareness Month with Dr. Nikki Watkins and Heather Wilson

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your Creator and co host Jen emos, also veteran spouse and goldstar daughter. And as always, I have my incredible co host with me, active duty military spouse for over 12 years, mom of two boys, mental health advocate, Jenny Lynch, troop jennylyn. Welcome back.

Speaker 1 0:19

Hey, Jen, good to be here. Excited to be here. We have some friends on today and their repeat guest.

Jen Amos 0:27

Yes. And let me go ahead and bring them on now starting with Heather Wilson, who is the Outreach Manager of the Steven a Cohen, military family clinic at the appcenter and also founder and executive director of Kennedy's Angel gowns. So Heather, welcome back.

Speaker 2 0:42

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be back and very excited to speak on this topic.

Jen Amos 0:47

Yes, absolutely. And of course, we also have a new guest on our show for the first time, Dr. Nikki Watkins, who is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and clinic director of the Steven a Cohen, military family clinic at VSD. Nikki, welcome to holding down the port podcast.

Unknown Speaker 1:04

Hello, thank you for having me. Yeah,

Jen Amos 1:06

absolutely. And so Jenny Lynn, just like what we've been talking about. Since before we started season five, I've been telling you like how it's my goal to bring back past guests. And I kind of leave it up to you to bring new people on the show. Of course, we have Heather as well, who is a returning guest, but let us know give our listeners a little background on you know what compelled you to bring Heather and Nikki to be a part of our conversation today.

Speaker 1 1:28

So I have the great pleasure of working with both Heather and Nikki through the Cohen veterans network. Heather and I are kind of colleagues that we both do outreach for our respective clinics, and Dr. Nikki Watkins is actually my clinic director. So my boss here today, so everybody be nice. Everyone behaved. Everyone behaved. Really, both of these women have such a heart for what they do both inside and outside of their work, and are excellent advocates for folks who have experienced pregnancy and infant loss and do a lot of work, both in their private practices in their foundations for that and knowing that this is a topic that often comes up in military spouse circles, I thought it would be super informative and helpful to have two people that I trust to carry this message kindly and gently and well.

Jen Amos 2:20

Awesome. And so I know that I often am kind of the upbeat person on the show. So please forgive me if like we're talking about a somber topic, and I'm a little uppity, that's sort of my coping mechanism is to have like a positive attitude on everything. So just know that that's kind of where I'm coming from, if I am coming off a little insensitive, and you guys are definitely more than welcome to, you know, be like Jen, like, you know, tone it down a little, you're a little too happy about this topic. So there's that. But yeah, no, I think this is going to be a very relevant topic. And so I think what I want to start with this topic is with you, Nikki being this your first time on the show, just tell us a little briefly with the work you do in mental health, just talk on mental health and importance of it, and even your observations and focusing on mental health for the military community. And then feel free to talk a little bit about your advocacy for pregnancy and infant loss.

Speaker 3 3:08

Yes, thank you. So regarding mental health, so I'm the clinic director at the Cleveland Clinic at VSD. And I have two clinics, which will be San Diego and Oceanside. That is a new role for me. So in addition to that, I was associate director and lead clinician for a few years I helped to open the clinic, and I provide therapy. And at our clinics, each individual is asked what is their specialty so that when clients come in, we can try to match them up with the best person to meet their needs. Of course, we're all competent enough to see any client. However, some of us have extensive experience in certain areas. And so for me, that would be grief and infant loss. And that stems from my own experience with infant loss. What my husband and I experienced a stillbirth, our daughter, Riley would have been nine years old this year, her birthday was just August 6, we just celebrated actually. And she would have been nine. And so for me, the journey that I was on as far as grief and mental health. Even being a clinician, it was very challenging because when you're in it, all of your tools and skills sometimes just go out the window. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. And so I had to seek my own help. And since then, what I've realized is that it is a silent, suffering point, I guess I should say for most people, many people suffer in silence once we shared about our loss. So many people came out of the Woodworks and we're like we've known you all these years, where do you come from? You never shared that. And you're still smiling, like how did you get there? Right. And so for me since I was already a therapist, and I shifted my private practice and my specialty at Cohen, to infant loss and grief. And so I run support grief groups at my church. Locally, I've facilitated we share, I started a support group specifically for women who have experienced infant loss. But what I would like to share is that both of my private practice and our CO and I've had clients come in who are military spouses or active duty, who have experienced infant loss, and are kind of expected to just keep going power through, why do you need time off work? Why can't you just get back to normal, we'll try again, and even from within their home. And so that is one of the reasons that I'm also passionate about it, and I push it for our clinics.

Jen Amos 5:36

Yeah, well, thank you, Nikki, for sharing a little bit about your background, and, you know, Happy belated birthday to Riley, who should be nine this year, as you mentioned, and, you know, for me, I have a high respect for people who have this deep level of empathy and compassion for people, because there's a part of me that makes me think like, they must have gone through something for them to have this level of care, you know, for people around them. And I also just want to point out how I appreciate the fact that even though you had your own practice, and you probably knew the tools to grieve, you still needed that help. I know Jenny Lynn, we talked about like, we had a conversation in the past with you and Matthew about like, even though you guys are very well educated and smart and intelligent, you still knew the importance of you know, getting help. And so, Daniel, and I just want to check in with you to see if you have any comments on anything that Nikki has shared so

Speaker 1 6:26

far. Oh, I mean, I am here for her story. I know bits and pieces of it, you know, and just the kindness she brings to all situations. We've worked together now for a year and a half, and just that level of like calm and kindness she brings to that. And the vulnerability like I mean to be able to share from that well have deep hurt and share Well, with others. It's something that I mean, you know, I'm the crier on the show, Jenna's the upbeat one. So I did balance each other out and very deep well of sorrow. And also, I mean, I just, those are bad people like those are bad people. Because I think that it's only through those losses and things that we were really able to connect on such a deep level and then bring healing in. And so I'm grateful to work with two women who do that really well. Yeah,

Speaker 3 7:16

the only thing I want to add is I forgot to mention that I did write a book. And I'm not sharing it to sell my book. I'm sharing it because that was part of my healing journey. And in order for me to heal, I needed to write it out. I've journaled for a year and a half, I just journal 10, my pen stopped. And then as I was writing it, I was thinking to myself, I wish I knew this. And so I wanted to write it so that other people going through infant loss, and maybe even struggling in their faith as a result of it would be able to say look, read it, and say okay, so I'm not crazy. So this isn't weird, like this is a normal reaction to this. So I just want to share that because I forgot to mention.

Jen Amos 7:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's very relevant to our conversation. And I want to go ahead and turn it over to Heather now. So Heather, you've been a past guest on the show, I know that you're doing some advocacy, with this particular topic with pregnancy and infant loss. So tell us a little bit about maybe give a quick snapshot of, you know, what mental health means for you in the military space and the work that you do, and also your advocacy with pregnancy and infant loss.

Speaker 2 8:22

So I've actually been with the UPS center for SSI, about 13 years. And so I worked in foster care and adoption. In my family, I come from a wide background of foster children, my sister, at one point had seven children, some more biological, some foster some that she adopted. So I did outreach for that department, but obviously still working in mental health and just helping children at that point. And then the position opened up on this side with the military with mental health, and it was outreach again, so took that opportunity. However, while I was working at the appcenter, I experienced a very tragic loss. My daughter Kennedy passed away. I was nine months pregnant, and she was stillborn, as well, as Nikki she was stillborn. Kennedy's birthday was actually two days ago, we celebrated her birthday. So be sure as you're speaking that you wish her so much in common. August is a tough month for me too. And it's two days removed from when we honored her and just celebrated her legacy. So when I experienced the loss, I just had so many people here at my job just surround me with so much love and just so much support. And after about seven years of grieving, I decided that it was time for me to do what Nikki did and take that step into what way I would honor myself but also honor my baby. And so the way that I chose to do that as I started a foundation, and it's called Kennedy's Angel gowns, I have a little bit of a background in sewing I just naturally can sell it Do not know why my mom says it comes from my grandmother. And so it was one night before her seventh birthday. And I took my sewing machine out. And I made her just this beautiful gown. Because one thing that stuck with me was that when it was time to bury Kennedy, I was very, very sick in the hospital. And I couldn't go out with my mom and my husband to pick a gown out. And when they were out to do that, there was just nothing small enough. And she was a full term baby. So to me, it was two things it was there was nothing her size. But also, oh my gosh, imagine the amount of parents that after they lose their child have to go into children's department and look at baby clothes, that is just so triggering. And so to me, it was to make a difference, I decided to make burial gowns. And so the way that I do that is I, people donate their wedding dresses to me, and I use that. So it's kind of like free material. And I use that to make gowns for little girls and suits invest for little boys. And we send them all over, not just the United States, but we've sent some to Europe and some to a few islands around the world. So we Yeah, our ministry is to basically be supportive to be that person who sits right beside them when they're going through. Before COVID. We were going in the hospitals with them, and sitting with them. My husband's a big part of it, too. But also, as we just researched and research this, just like she said, a silent topic. And there's so much more to know, there's so much support, and so many resources that people know about. So we try to spread the resources. And then about eight years into us. Eight years. Eight years after Kennedy passed and we started the organization, we started to get these cooling devices, we found out that they were in Europe, and what they do is they kind of maintain the baby's body temperature. And it sounds morbid, but I promise you it's not well, they're called cuddle cots or carrying cradles just depends on if you manufacture it in the United States, or in Europe. And they keep the body of the baby's body at a temperature so that it slows down the natural progression of death so that you can make memories, you can take those pictures, you can wait for family members to arrive. So they can hold the baby and spend time with the baby and really just hold on to those memories. Because when your baby dies, as an infant or stillborn, you just have those memories right there, you don't have a lifetime of memories. So it's the memory makings a huge thing. And so thus far, we've donated to 10 area hospitals in Virginia and North Carolina. And then we started to do more research, my husband's really big into the research. And we found out that this affects black and brown women more often than it does our white counterparts. And so then it became like full steam ahead, we got to make change. So we started to look at our numbers and collect data and see how many gallons are we giving out a week, and we're averaging about four to five gallons. So we're helping about four to five families a week bury their children. And when we looked at the numbers, it's true that it is black and brown women and it's the moms aren't even making it out of the delivery one. So we started to raise awareness for that. And we were blessed last year that Kamala Harris found out about the work that we're doing. And we're able to sit down with her and really speak at a roundtable and just tell our stories, but also, she was able to make change because our small organizations or Nikki's work that she does, our voices are small in the big picture of where change needs to happen. And so to be able to get to the White House to bring that message and funding because it's going to take funding. To me that was one of the biggest, biggest achievements I could have done in Kennedy's honor. And so from there, that's where the advocacy piece has just taken off and it's my mission now to just really educate and be the voice for people that just don't have the voice or just are literally in shock because of the tragedy they just experience.

Jen Amos: 14:00

Yeah, well Heather Wow, just thank you for sharing all of that. And you both actually reminded me that you know, mentioning that a lot of this could happen to women of color essentially and you guys just reminded me that my mom actually had a miscarriage before my brother. Yeah, so we should have been like four siblings as opposed to like three siblings and maybe I wouldn't have had it as hard as a middle child there would have been someone there in the middle with me. But I feel like I need to take a minute to process but I really do want to thank you both just like what Jenny Lynn had shared what she said earlier the fact that you're so transparent with all of this and you know really turning that hurt into something good. Like you're honoring that loss by helping other people I mean the fact that you make these you know cute little gowns and suits for these babies is like absolutely amazing. Genuine I'm curious if this is new to you any information that Nikki or Heather had shared.

: 14:53

I have heard bits and pieces of both of their stories which is why I wanted both of them on today. I also am a follower and hopefully soon a participator in the Kennedys gown thing, their last big fundraiser, we had been in town, bipod minutes, and I was unable to unpack enough nice clothes actually, movers lost my nice clothes, hey, military life, so I wouldn't have had anything to wear it anyway, you know, so no, but just hearing both of them share together and you know how much their stories overlap and how they've taken those stories and done good. I could listen to you all day, quite frankly, other than I'm probably going to tear up more throughout the thing, but I really could listen to it all day, it is mostly tears of gratitude for two people who do such good work and pride, because I love them both. So yeah, you love him, too. Yes. Like, it's

Jen Amos: 15:45

been so emotional lately. I think genuine brings out the emotion sometimes to him just like a

: 15:51

mini therapy. I mean, I might as well like, we just we come here for the free therapy that I can offer. After the 10,000 hours, I've sat on the

Jen Amos: 15:59

couch. You know what, though? This is why I love podcasting, because I feel like it's a form of relief. You know, it's like you've already did all the hard work, the amazing work and continual work through therapy. I think sharing is a form of self healing. And so, you know, and I mentioned this to genuine quite often that I just always appreciate how she shows up on the show the way that she does, because she definitely is the crier of our show. And I mean myself, I've definitely been a little more hypersensitive lately, just with at the time of this recording, like how I don't have a home right now I'm trying to figure out where my next place is going to be. But you know, for genuine to continually show up the way that she does wholeheartedly. I just absolutely appreciate it. And I feel like I need to mention that because I don't want this to be like, oh, let's bring on Jamie Lynn, because she's the crier of the show. She has more heart to this, like, No, it's just the way you show up, I really do have to acknowledge it. And thank you, you know, as always for that. So as you guys know, our show is called going down the floor. And we primarily like to focus on providing resources and stories, education to our military spouses. And Nikki, you had hinted earlier about, like, you know, in regards to pregnancy and infant loss, it's a lot different for a military spouse to go through that like in this crazy life. So can you elaborate a little bit more from your own observations of you know, helping military spouses or couples for that matter? You know, go through pregnancy and infancy loss?

: 17:19

Yes, I think some of the unique challenges are going to be just some of the obvious portions of military life, right. And what I mean by that is, we know that there are deployments, we know that there are moves, and so life doesn't stop for them, just because that's happening, right. So you have someone who's living in a new city, a new state, they don't have a support system, yet, they may have just moved there. And now they've lost their child. And they don't have anyone to really lean on, they may not know where to go yet, maybe they haven't had a chance to get connected yet, right? Or you have someone who spouses on deployment. And they say if the husband is on deployment, and the wife has an infant loss, right, not only does she not get to have the comfort of her spouse, because they both created this child together, he is out wherever he is, it could be on a ship, it could be on land someplace, but he has to try to deal with those emotions. And most of the time, they can't they don't have the space for it to compartmental, right? They just kind of have to keep going. And so how do you even deal with that, right? And so those are like they're buried, because you have to keep going, the mom who's at home, may have other children that she has to continue to raise and try to take care of, and maybe families in another state another country? Who knows right. And so I think that those are some of the unique challenges that we don't think about when we think about infant loss specifically for the military population.

Jen Amos: 18:50

Yeah, I mean, I definitely didn't think about that. So you brought awareness to it. Heather, I wanted to see if there's anything you wanted to add, in addition to your advocacy, and maybe what you have noticed in the military community, yeah, so

: 19:00

we're really close to Portsmouth naval here. And so we get families all the time that reached out from there. And some of the challenges that we've noticed is if there is a family who is of a faith where you have to bury within a couple days, and that makes it so hard, and as Nicky mentioned, grieving by yourself when your spouse is away, because sometimes that that's the case to where they they're by themselves. And when I go into the hospital room, they are literally sitting by themselves processing this sometimes it's a surprise to people. When you have a baby who is stillborn. You still have to deliver the baby. So I think that's a surprise. They usually induce you when you go into full labor. And so it's going through that traumatic process by yourself. It's just it's scary. And just men are different. They grieve different. They compartmentalize a little bit different. So that pressure of being in the military Not knowing how to support your spouse, it's everything. I think it's literally it's just everything that goes along with the grieving process for both the mom and the dad, it's difficult.

: 20:10

And, you know, I want to add to something that Heather just mentioned as far as delivering. So going along with that is the burial. I was shocked that that was a part of my experience. As I'm filling the hospital, the social worker comes in and hands me a folder and says, I need to pick a cemetery and mortuary I mean, I was just floored, I couldn't believe it, I was sitting there, like, I already don't want this to be happening to me. And then now you want me to like, find the funds, select my own burial place, like it was just all too much. And then you go into what she mentioned about the clothing and picking a casket, I'm actually gonna do that. So imagine if the spouses one spouse is away, one is there alone. And they have to figure out how to bury their child. And then you may have even unique circumstances like, do I want to bury my child here, we might even be here anymore. Like you that was a real struggles. So I'm going to leave my child here, and we may move in three years. And those are all decisions they may have to make alone if they don't have family around. And then the spouse doesn't have the privilege of being a part of that process, who's the spouse who's away,

: 21:16

or a family plot that is located where everybody else lives, it's just it's so much to just in the moment of, you're just processing, oh, my God, my baby doesn't have a heartbeat. Oh, my gosh, I have to deliver, Oh, my gosh, I have to bury this child. It's just so much, you're just left just speechless.

: 21:34

And not to be a political commentary on military mental health. But quite frankly, I mean, some of those cuddle cots are talked about, they've donated to Portsmouth naval because fundamentally, as an organization, they don't do specialty care. And that is a specialty care issue, for lack of better terminology. And they're wonderful, like naval RV docks corpsman. They're wonderful people. And also, a Naval Hospital isn't intended to be like a children's hospital, or, you know, things like that. And so that's another added layer of if that's where you're at, like, that's where you're at. And for some people, I mean, Heather and I are fortunate to live in Hampton Roads, and Nikki and San Diego, where there is a plethora of resources, you know, but some people like out in the middle of nowhere Kansas, like the army hospitals, it like, that's what you got, yeah, they're just not equipped to handle that kind of stuff. So on top of all of the issues Nikki and Heather have already discussed, like, you've got the added layer of staff that while kind and loving are just fundamentally not equipped for this.

Jen Amos: 22:42

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you all for bringing light to this conversation and to this topic, and I think my next natural question is, where do we go from here? You know, like, let's say, for that person who is going through this tragic situation, and I want to start with you, Nicky, you know, what is the first thing you want to tell them? What is the first thing you think they should do? Or not? Do? You know, like, where do we go from there? And that very moment, if that once that happens,

: 23:05

the first thought that comes to my mind is actually what part of the title of my book, The first thought that comes as you are not alone? And the reason I named it that was because you feel so alone in that moment, even if you have family around? Because nobody knows that personal experience, right? Yeah. But the reason I say you are not alone is that there are so many other people that this has happened to, I've looked at statistics where there were about 24,000 stillbirths a year. And that doesn't include the number of four miscarriages, right? And so it's more common than we think. And that's what I want people to know. Because you feel so long, I felt like this weird thing had happened to me. And what is wrong with me because I had never met anyone. And then it's crazy how many people this happens to I mean, so many people that are already new, who already have maybe multiple children, they know that in between, like you mentioned about your mom, I mean, those births, there were losses and Heather was there. I'm not sure if Jenny Lynn was but I did a seminar for our network on infant loss and how to support them for our clinicians. And I put up a list of celebrities even their had experienced infant loss miscarriage because there's a difference between, you know, stillbirth and miscarriage. And there are some that even passed away, you know, after birth because of, you know, illnesses due to premature birth. But my point is the list was like exhaustive and I'm sure I didn't do that probably touched the surface of the internet, of how many people this happens to people that we see every single day people that we interact with every single day. So I think that is the first thing I would just like to share is just to know that you are not alone. It happens more often than we care to believe it does. And most likely they know someone, whether they know it or not who's experienced that. And I also would like to just say get the help you need to get the help you need. Because it's going to be a long road, first year is going to be tough. Every first is going to hit you like a brick. Every first Mother's Day, every first Father's Day, first Christmas, first Thanksgiving, first, Easter, first everything first birthday, because you're all you're thinking what it would have looked like. And that's usually what I walk my clients through is just those firsts.

Jen Amos: 25:25

Yeah, I really like how Nikki, you first start off with saying, You're not alone. You're not the only person that's gone through this. And my main observation with the military community is because of all the moves, and all the changes. It just constantly feels alone, you constantly feel like you're doing this by yourself. So to have this on top of that, you know, I think it is important to remind people that you are not alone. And I also love how you said, Get help, like, don't deal with it alone. How do you do that you get help, you know, more importantly, and get professional help. Because like you mentioned earlier, your family, your friends, especially if they've never gone through this experience, or have publicly shared it, you know, they're not gonna know how to support you. And so I really appreciate those action items, or even kind of just what to tell yourself in that moment, as hard as it could be, because I know it's a lot to process. You can't just have it happen be like, I'm not alone, you know, like you have to get to that place. Heather, I want to ask the same question to you. What are some initial, you know, maybe words of encouragement, or, you know, words of wisdom you want to share to someone who may be experiencing pregnancy and infant loss?

: 26:27

I think Nikki was right in line with the first thing that anyone who's walked through this would say is you're not alone, find your tribe, have to find your tribe, because my best friend that I've known since I was a little girl cannot relate to the pain that I experienced with losing Kennedy. So I think finding that support them, whether it's online, in person, however, find people who really understand your pain, there are still many people. You think about the statistics, one in four women will experience a miscarriage and one in eight, a stillbirth. There's four of us on this call right now. So there are people who do understand your pain can help you walk through it, therapy is a must. It's a must. My faith, my faith got me through some really tough times. There were times when I would go to church, and I would just saw the whole time in church. And I think people will probably look at me like, Why is she coming? Because I really could not tell you what the pastor said, I could tell you what the choir thing, I couldn't tell you anything. It was just I knew I had to be in that space. I knew I had to be there. I didn't know what I was getting from it at the time, that you have to have something to hang on to whether it be your faith, your tribe, whatever that is, you have to find that in those dark days.

Jen Amos: 27:43

Yeah, Nikki, I see you nodding a lot. So I wanted to see if there's anything else you wanted to add on what Heather shared,

: 27:48

that she was just spot on, spot on finding your tribe that just can't fit better. I agree.

Jen Amos: 27:55

Wonderful. You

: 27:56

know, we are very community focused here holding down the fort, whether we call a community or your tribe or whatever, like, this is why you and I do this, this is why we bring on people like this, I guess I would just encourage our listeners, like if any of this is resonating with you, and you need that kind of support, and don't know where to look for it, please feel free to email us message us and we will do our best to connect you with people who can connect you with people, you know, and I just think I was listening to Heather's story about sitting in church, you know, I am not someone who has experienced pregnancy or infant loss. I had two pregnancies and two births. And my children are happy and healthy. I have had other unfortunate and tragic news. And you know, I was thinking about the head. They're like, why would we do that? Why would we go sit in a place when sometimes it feels like what's the point. And I can think of the Sunday after the unfortunate news that I received, I happen to be sitting in a place where a friend of mine who was on the praise and worship team at my church could see me and I didn't know she could see me. And I saw the entire service. And so afterwards, she came up and she's like I saw you. You don't have to say anything. But if you want to know that I'm here. And I think in knowing you're not alone. And military spouses are fantastic at this we PCs so often and recreate tribes so often like, it is very difficult than a time of tragedy to do that. And also get out there because people will see you and people will show up for you.

: 29:36

That's really good. Wow, it's really good. Yeah,

: 29:41

it's true. It's women. Like the supportive women too. It's just the way we can feel each other's pain in the way that we can just get together and just have that mutual understanding of it's just hard to be a woman in a spouse and spouse of someone who serves.

: 30:03

Yeah, I want to if it's okay, if I can add something, please, a couple of things. One is I just would like for family members, and even just friends to know that we so often forget the husband. And that was really a big thing for my husband. And he says that to the husbands of women that we talk with, he speaks to them, to let them know that he sees them because he felt not seen as if it was merely my loss. Everybody's focused on the mom because she carried the baby, and his losses just as deep. And so just to really remember that there were two parents also remembering that grandparents grieve. My mother and his mother still have a hard time the siblings of that last child grieve like it affects everybody. I even know someone who was an art. And just a hard time because everybody was expecting this child, everybody had ideas of how they were going to spend their time with this child and what they were going to do and what they're going to buy them. So just that we don't forget that there's a whole family that's grieving, but especially that Yeah, and if I can add one more thing, just piggybacking on what Heather said, I would like to say find meaning. And that might not be in the beginning. But find meaning and find purpose in the loss. That is where healing comes from. When you find that meaning in that purpose. I've healed so much from facilitating grief groups. And every time I do one, I get to continue to heal. Just as when she when Heather creates her gowns, and I also crochet cradles, but I just don't do them as consistently, but there's a cradle. Same reason she said the babies are so small that they can't fit these hard for the parents to hold them. There's a organization that creates cradles, and I will crush it is but all of those things give you something you feel like okay, well, something's coming out of this because it can't just be for nothing right now.

: 31:58

Right? You should have never told me about those cradles.

Jen Amos: 32:08

Nikki, I love how you mentioned like, you know, find meaning and loss. I recently did a keynote for a military spouse mixer, talking about the loss of my dad, and sharing the lessons of you know, having lost a parent at 10 years old. And how it took me almost 20 years to finally unpack what that meant for me. But the fact is, like you said it may not be today may not be tomorrow, but eventually, you know, if you want to honor that loss, you got to find meaning in it. You know, you got to understand like, what does it mean for someone like me who survived that loss? How can I continue on that person's legacy? How can I continue to honor them, just like how you both celebrate the birthdays, you know, every single year, which I think is amazing. Heather, I want to check in with you and make sure like in addition to everything that Nicki shared, are there any other closing thoughts that you want to share with our listeners here?

: 32:53

Yeah, I just want to share something that my organization does to raise awareness and to raise money. As mentioned, it's very expensive to bury a child. And so we do have fundraisers to help with funeral expenses as well. One thing that we do is we host a 5k every year. So if you are in Virginia Beach area, Hampton Roads area, you can join us in person. Hopefully, we'll see restrictions on However, you can also participate virtual and you'll still get your T shirt and your metal. We call it the angel run 5k. We do it every year in October. This year. It's on October 16. And then around bereaved Mother's Day, which is a holiday that people don't even know about. We also host an angel bowl, which is a gala, we were all white, actually, this year, we're doing roaring 20s. So we have lots of fundraisers that you can support that directly support these families that are going through pregnancy and infant loss.

Jen Amos: 33:52

Awesome. Thank you so much, Heather. And Nikki, I want to make sure if there's any resources you want to share,

: 33:56

yes, the last couple of resources, I will share our empty cradle. They are nationwide. And so people can just type in their zip code and find one in their area. I also would like to mention griefshare that is another one that people can just type in their zip code and they will find one somewhere near their area. And that was one that brought about the most healing for me, I resisted going. And when I got to the bottom and I couldn't go any further. I was stuck. And I went that is what brought the movement. So I just want to bring about those resources. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 34:28

absolutely. And of course for our listeners if you are looking for those resources, I'll be sure to have Heather and Nikki Give me the exact link so we can include it in the show notes for you all to have access to Jenny Lynn just want to check in with you. Obviously this was your idea to bring him on and I'm so glad this came into fruition. Any closing thoughts you want to share with Heather Nikki or to our listeners?

: 34:48

Oh, I think just once again, I am grateful for their transparency and their honesty and their willingness to share. I think this conversation is something that definitely taught me Something as somebody who hasn't ever had to go through this, it definitely I will definitely walk away being, you know, a little bit more sensitive in the world in a good way. Not like a raw nerve. But you know, more sensitive to people that experience things that I don't know anything about, because I have two people in my life who were willing to be transparent about it. So I'm grateful for them joining us today. Yeah, for

Jen Amos: 35:26

sure. Well, Nikki, Heather, I want to thank you both. And it was a pleasure meeting you for the first time virtually, and hopefully nice getting you to yeah, hopefully by having to be in town, maybe we'll run into each other, but no pressure. And Heather, yes, I still owe you and genuinely to hang out. So that will be in the talks of that. Just give me a couple months to figure my life out. But thank you both so much for being on our show. And of course, Jenny lane, I want to thank you for co hosting with me as always. Yeah.

: 35:53

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you for creating the platform to have this conversation. Thank you, gentlemen, so much for providing Heather and I could do this.

Jen Amos: 36:04

For sure. All right. And so our listeners Thank you all so much for joining us, and we'll chat with you and the next episode. Tune in next time