112: "Spouses transitioning needs to be a conversation. Military transition is a two-person event." A space to discuss the cumulative effect of military life with Jen Pasquale

Jen Amos 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your Creator and co host john Amos. And as always, I have my co host with me, Jenny Lynch group. Gentlemen, welcome back. Hey, glad to be here today.

Yes, and we are oddly off today and we're just gonna see what happens with this conversation.

Unknown Speaker 0:19

We are back in the same timezone

Jen Amos 0:21

we are we are at the time of this recording, we're definitely in the same time zone again. And so really excited to be able to bring a past guest on our show again, Jennifer pass wall, I'm gonna call her Jen, even though there's like three gems in this room. But without further ado, Jen passbolt Welcome back to holding down the fort. Happy to be back. Good to see both of you. Yeah, absolutely. And we're all feeling a little off today. Let's just start with that and see how this conversation goes. But I think that is kind of the beauty of this life is that you know, despite whatever gets thrown in our way we still show up and so I just want to commend all of us today that despite whatever is going on I'm in the background even where I'm currently at right now. We're here we're here to have this candid conversation here on holding down the fort. With that said So Jen, the last time we had caught up I think it was like late last year a lot has changed for you so you've recently PCs real briefly give us a quick snapshot of what life looks like for you today since we last spoke?

Speaker 1 1:18

Yeah, it has been a busy busy: 2021

Jen Amos 3:01

Yeah, absolutely. And we actually had to reschedule just because of the craziness of your schedule so thank you for you know despite everything that's going on, you're still taking a minute here to sit with us and you know kind of give us a snapshot of your life. So to our listeners you may not have known this but Jenny Lynn was actually like rolling her eyes for a second here listening to Jen talk about her PCs experience genuine you just PCs so I know you have some thoughts and you want to share that as well.

Speaker 2 3:25

in my brain All I saw was the: 1000

Speaker 1 4:39

Yeah, no, it has definitely been a unique year we for the very first time like this is what is this is 15 it'll be very 15 years so we've This is 16 or 17 years and nine moves. I think this is our ninth one. We've never done like a full ppm and we didn't this time either. But we did a partial with a part of it as a pod because we knew we'd be without our stuff. For a long time, so we did one pod, and then we're doing the rest military and we'll sort of see how the reimbursement plays out. But I definitely did not want to camp for three months. I'm just too old I can't. So that were actually worked out great, because we've had sofas and beds and you know, a kitchen and clothes and like, we've had the basics for almost a month now, waiting on the rest of our stuff that just got packed out because it took forever to get a date. You know, it's like everybody else, right? So it's been one of those that I feel for folks who are doing it for the first time because I think if you've been around the block a while, and you're, you know, this is not your first rodeo, then you kind of get that this is not great. And it's been hard. But if it was the very first time I had ever done it, it would just I feel for those folks, because I think it would be really, really overwhelming. So I'm grateful for kind of that experience because it tempers I think your expectations a little bit.

Jen Amos 5:52

Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of which, I want to remind our listeners a little bit about what we talked about in your first interview, and the fact that you like to focus on seasoned spouses, especially those who are sort of in that Limbo stage of like, Are we going to transition? Or are we not going to transition? Like what Jenny Lynn was saying earlier, the moving target of just the life of being a military spouse, especially now that you have, you know, PCs? Again, what does it mean for you to, again, focus on seasoned spouses specifically in what you do with pride and grit?

Speaker 1 6:22

Yeah, I think you know, that's just sort of where my heart is, you know, because it's, frankly, it's the group I'm in, right, we're not in a transition space, per se. But we certainly in terms of my husband's years of service, we certainly could be. And so just really understanding what the needs are of that pocket with, if you will, within the military community. And just recognizing that there are some nuances that come for us the end of service when you become an empty nester, or when you, you know, there's a man, there's just when you've done it enough times, and there starts to be that kind of cumulative impact of these things, the cumulative moves, the cumulative separations, you know, it's all those, it's really just helping meet the people that need support in that pocket in a way that I feel like they weren't necessarily getting other places. And so it frankly, it's just been a joy to see. I mean, I hate that it's needed. But I'm really happy that folks are saying that it's needed. And they're saying that they're finding some level of support through what we're trying to do with pride and grid.

Jen Amos 7:19

er a while, you're, you know,: 1518

Speaker 2 8:18

That cumulative effect term really struck me. You know, I think, when people think of deployments, they think of the spouse doing it the first time, Oh, my gosh, this must be so difficult. You've never done this before. And there is a lot of truth in that the first deployment my family did, I was eight and a half months pregnant the day the ship pulled out of the pier and had our first child, you know, three weeks into a seven month deployment. And there was a lot of like, fear and uncertainty wrapped up in all of that for multiple reasons. You know, now having been married for over 12 years, and together with Matthew for 15. Like, it really is that cumulative effect that matters. I mean, we're on our, I don't even know what number of PCs we're staring down, you know, the months of deployment here shortly. And our kids are at an age where they notice, you know, before, nobody noticed, and I was really like taking care of their basic needs, because they were little but I was really able to focus on taking care of me because they didn't notice. And now they for sure do. And I mean, we've been here back in Virginia for a couple of months. And I've already started having conversations within my own head and also with my husband about, hey, we have a really short set of orders here. But if you're not going to go somewhere very far, like we may stay. And I also want to say like and we came home, like I'm from Hampton Roads. My kids were both born in Hampton Roads. And so we came back to a community and grandparent And things that are stable and home and still, my kids are miss my friends school is going to be weird. This is hard, why does dad have to leave? And I just think, Oh my gosh, I don't know that I can do it again. Because it is that cumulative effect of being the one at home who is constantly taking in all of that information of all of the people in my house. And, you know, so I think the way that pride and grit and the evolve retreat, like support seasoned spouses is definitely something needed because that cumulative effect get heavy and long.

: 10:39

Well, and I think part of what makes it heavy is because I think there is like we talked a little bit about this last time, too. But it's this, the fact that historically, we haven't said it's heavy, right? It's not part of how we do this. It's not how we do this life, right? We don't talk about those heavier things as openly and as, as just kind of matter of factly, as I think we really should, from a health from just a mental health standpoint. And I think that, to me, is how you lessen the weight. That's how you stop giving sort of that weight, the power that it has, is to start talking about it. And so I hope with seasoned spouses part of like, we're not going to solve the fact that there's a cumulative, we can't fix that. But what we can do is create a space that helps people see that other people have cumulative way to they're not the only ones who, you know, sits on the sofa after unpacking the last box and says, I don't know if I can do this for the 10th or the 12th. Or the 15th time, right? We're not the only ones who feel that way. And so how do we help people talk about that, so that they can move through that feeling in a way that doesn't give it the way it has for a lot of people who earlier on in their careers. And I think gentlemen, you and I are probably were like come from the same sort of, you know, generation in terms of how we were raised in the military life early on not to talk about those things. And that's that was the cost of being a service family. And if you're going to be a service family, then these are the things you're going to need to weather. Yeah, true. It doesn't mean you know, like, that's, that's not rocket science, right? It doesn't mean we can't talk about those things. And it doesn't mean we can't give them a voice. So that we can all feel and community with some of that hard. I think sometimes people just shy away from it because they don't, you know, you don't you want to be positive. And you want to have the right mindset. And you want to put on a, you know, sort of a happy face and kind of like stiff upper lip mentality, which we know isn't working. We know that doesn't work, it works for a time. But that cumulative effect will eventually take hold. If you've just willed yourself through those years, instead of really like dealing with those things that are hard and man having and having the ability to talk about them openly.

: 12:53

Well, I think we've done ourselves a disservice as a community by not talking about that, not just personally and that we didn't want to let anybody else know or we're worried nobody else felt that way. But like, we've done ourselves a disservice as a military community in always making it look good, because half a percent of the United States population is military. A quarter of another half percent of that half percent are the spouses supporting that military community. And that's not very many people to shoulder the constant moving the constant deploying just all of the things that have come, especially with the post 911 military time period, and not talking about how the cumulative effect of all of those things, I think it's really done us a disservice. And now we're kind of looking at as Afghanistan has, at least at the time of this recording come to a close, you know, there's a lot of what the heck, like from all sides, I'm like, What do you mean, this is hard? What do you mean, because we've just been really good at shouldering all of it.

: 14:08

I think that's absolutely true. I mean, I think we didn't know that's what we were doing. Like I don't I don't know that it was deliberate. Right? It was just what we do. And I think now we see there is merit to bringing sort of the civilian side into that life a little bit more so that they can understand it a little bit better. And we can lean on those other infrastructures to help us through those periods. So I feel like we've learned a lot. And I think we're continuing to, but I think really helping the seasoned spouses who haven't grown up, who at least didn't early on, probably grow up in that culture that supported them, lifting that burden and lifting that weight. I think that's part of why it's because you're such a passion for me is just, I know what that feels like because I you know, that's exactly the space that I'm in so wanting to help them with that. Just the cumulative effect is certainly there. But I think the other thing that I think is really important for seasoned spouses and is this whole like transition, we talked about like the evolve retreat. Part of that was about really helping support people who may not have been in transition, we had some attendees that were post transition, we had some that, you know, dropped paperwork two weeks ago, we had some that were years away. And that was the intent really, was to try to bring a broad group together to say, what does this look like as a spouse, because all those years of sort of cumulative stresses, for a lot of people, not for everybody, but for a lot of people, identity is the thing that gets sacrificed. And so really, that like part of that retreat was sort of gathering those seasoned spouses together to go. Not, you're the only ones that have an identity crisis, right? Like, we know, they're not the only pocket within the military spouse community that that struggles with that. But we knew they were a pocket that like I felt like we could speak to and speak to specifically around this idea of transition. How do we help you regain your identity, find your footing, figure out what your path looks like, so that both of you aren't trying to do that in the same moment when you're going through a transition, right? Because no, you're not transitioning, like we get that the service members, the one transitioning, but really, transition is like a team sport, right? At least it should be that we're trying to transition well, both the service member and the spouse, and by extension, the family into this, you know, this new life, sort of, you know, beyond the gate. And if we can do that in a way that helps spouses feel like they know what that looks like for them. I think we do the service member, you know, benefit as well. And so it's also part of having those conversations that I really I've just enjoyed that part of, of supporting this community, because I don't think the idea of spouses transitioning, I feel like just wasn't a conversation and it needs to be because, like, in theory, right, it should be a two person event, we are both leaving the military community, we're both grieving that community largely. And we're both going off into something potentially something different, because now we have control over our schedule and where we live, and there's so many things that we get to control that we really have to figure out. Okay, what do we want that to look like, and to just giving spouses the time and the space to start to think about that was really the most fun for me in doing the retreat?

Jen Amos: 17:27

Yeah, I want to add upon what you both are saying and kind of speak also, like, if there's any keyword I'm hearing from both of you is to normalize these conversations to say that it's okay. Like, yes, you are not the only one, experiencing this cumulative effect. And I want to speak from even just a military child perspective, like the first decade of my life, having been a military child, and just seeing the impact of not talking about these things, from a military child perspective, because I didn't see my family talking about these things, normalizing these conversations. And going through all these change, I eventually started to pick up this message that my voice didn't matter, my needs didn't matter. And I remember when we transitioned out abruptly, and you know, people told me this later, like in my mid 20s, when I finally started to get help on this, that the way that I was acting the way that I had experienced being bullied and keeping to myself, it kind of came from this place of just feeling like my needs didn't matter, like I was disappearing, in a sense, because we didn't normalize these kinds of conversations. So I also want the season spouse to not just think about themselves thinking like, oh, if there is a sense of shame of not talking about this, I want you to not just think about yourself, but think about your kids. And if you can set that example of talking about it, and being a part of a peer to peer group is, which is I know, something, Jen that you're trying to push for with evolve. You know, if you can set that example to your kids, they too can see, like, Oh, this is normal, we can talk about this, and therefore I can talk about my experiences as well. Because otherwise you have someone like me, who took 1520 years later to really unpack, you know, spending most of my adult life trying to unpack the craziness of having moved two to three years as a kid, and never talking about it, never getting the heads up for my parents. It's like, oh, we're just moving like, didn't even say it's like, things started packing up. We just started moving, you know. And so I want to add that perspective as well to know the significance of, it's not just about you, right? It's about your family as an entirety. And I feel like in a weird way, we're like lecturing, but really, we're encouraged, right? We're saying, like, your needs your situation, it's valid, it's important. And if more people can know about it, you can come together and figure it out together. So anyway, that's just something I wanted to add upon what you both were saying. So Jen, when we last spoke, you were still talking about your evolve, retreat. And at this time, it's already been passed. And so tell us a little bit about what that experience was like for you to kind of sit down and be like, you know what, I need to create this retreat specifically, you know, for seasoned spouses, and tell us what it was like to actually execute it and even what it's like now, you know, that you are in the process of considering putting together a second retreat.

: 19:56

Yeah, I mean, I think if I think back to what it felt like when I was, you know, saying, Okay, I'm actually going to do this, it was really just scary. I mean at the beginning, because it's not necessarily a skill set I had, I wanted to do right by the people who chose to come and give their time and give their money to be a part of it. And I wanted it to feel like that, that felt like worthwhile to them. So I felt this, you know, massive responsibility to do that, well for them. And then it was just sort of putting one foot in front of the other for, you know, months, right. And I got really lucky because I had, you know, a handful of team members who were just top notch phenomenal military spouses, who basically were everything I wasn't so whatever. And I didn't know it at the time. But what I've since learned is how important it is to really build a team around your weaknesses. And so I did without even realizing that's what I was doing. And so I had people who could just be the best of what I couldn't, and that I think really helped make the event a successful event. In the end, we had almost 100 people attend, and give their weekend to spend it with us, and to spend it with each other. And you know, to listen to our speakers and have conversations with each other. We had life coaches that were there that were facilitating table conversations, and really just giving other spouses the ability to Oh, you're in, you know, Virginia, too. And, you know, so there's been friendships that were formed from it. And so it's been fun to just kind of watch it unfold on its own. But I think for me, the biggest thing was just realizing at the end that it felt like we had hit our mark, in that, I think on our numbers we had 88% of our people in the survey said they would come again, and like 97% felt like it was, you know, essentially worth their time it was it was impactful to them in some way. And so that to me for having having never done one before, right, not not really knowing what that what would happen. That felt really good, frankly, and we have a lot of support, and a lot of people that helped us get there. I'm certainly grateful to all of them. But it was funny, like, I mean, it felt like it barely ended. And it's like, when when's the next one that's like, Oh, my, you know, I need to take a breath. And so we did and we moved and you know, now I'm on the other side. And now I'm starting to put together what would that look like for, you know, additional sponsors to allow us to do you know, things even bigger and better. It's kind of always, always how it goes, right. And so we're looking at another version of it next spring, you're still toying with whether there's an in person version or whether it stays virtual. But I think for us, the virtual was really effective, we invested heavily in the software that we use to really create that connection with people. And I think it paid off. And it did its job. And it allowed a virtual retreat to feel a little bit closer than you know, than some others. So I don't know, I guess that's the full story on how it went. But it was really, really hard. And there were a lot of you know, when I am trying to get stuff done, and just trying to make it happen. But it was actually really fun you were talking about kids is what was really fun for me is to watch my kids watch me do this, right. So for them to see what that looked like for them to see me working so hard for other people, because I never set out for this event to be kind of an income generating event, if you will. So it needs to cover its own expenses. And that was just a really nice thing for them to see. And then like the day of the event, my husband had decided that it might be best if he take the children and the dog for the weekend. And so they went and found you know, a little Airbnb somewhere and so they wouldn't have you know, weekend, which was great. But it was so fun for them to Skype with me or they FaceTime me or, you know, the morning and were cheering me on and just to have them be part of it was like that was worthwhile in and of itself, right just to see them. You know, see me given that way and understand why because I think genuine to your point earlier, without me having to tell them what this life has often meant to me and some of the harder elements. It was a way to just say hey, it's not always easy for everyone involved. It's not always easy for them. And it's not always easy for you know, for both of their parents and for them to just see that a different way. And to see that, you know, when you see a need, sometimes you can be the thing that feels it.

: 24:04

Well, I was an attendee of the evolve, retreat. And so one Jen did not give herself and her team enough credit, it was very well done. It was well worth my time. And what I really enjoyed about it is it was another space, where not only were most people in a similar area of life, meaning they were like looking at transition or enough years into almost transitioned or had just dropped papers and we're trying to figure out what that look like. Those were all similarities. But we were all from different services. I mean, it was army heavy, because Jen comes from an army background and those are her people. But there were plenty of other service spouse is there and I think that is one of the things I love about doing this podcast. But one of the things I love about being in a military area where it's not a single service is you You get to learn, even though you have different experiences and deployments, like different across the services and some of the demands like it's by and large, a lot the same experience. And there's a lot to be gained from hearing about that from another service perspective. I mean, what I took out of that, aside from the excellent coaches she had on there was just like hearing how other people have dealt with different things. I mean, I come at this from a Navy background, and navy deployment looks very different than an army deployment. And, you know, my family has the, we've done both. And so it's always interesting to me to talk to people like army Marines that look very much like the Afghanistan deployment, Matthew did like, because when he was there, none of my Navy friends had a frame of reference for that. And I was very much in a Navy bubble. And so I love that this retreat was open to everyone, no matter where you are in the world, or you know, really like time as a spouse, but that, that allowed us time to reflect on and share, and encourage and make friends, I just that reminded me that I have the phone number of somebody that lives here that I said, Hey, I'd love to have coffee when I get to Virginia. And now that my kids are finally going back to school, and I won't be home alone with them all day, every day, I might be able to make that coffee date happens. So I love

Jen Amos: 26:27

it. You know, Jen, I'm curious to know from just from having run, evolve, and obviously in the works of creating the second retreat? Is there anything from that experience where you had this big realization that you didn't know you were going to have like, during this process? Or was there a belief that was affirmed? Because you did this retreat? Yes. And what is it?

: 26:51

I mean, I think there were lots of things I didn't anticipate. Yeah. And I think that was sort of your question, right? And I think one of the things I didn't anticipate which is what I spoke to earlier is this idea that by focusing on seasoned spouses, there would be a perception that I was excluding someone else right? And I just it just didn't occur to me because in my mind, the nuances of the experience at that CS at that you know, 15 plus year pocket there are nuances to that right, you know, you're not going to be 20 and be an empty nester like those two things don't go together. So there are just things that are unique to that latter part of service the cumulative effect like all the things we've talked about, so I didn't anticipate that and it was one of those things when I first heard that from someone it felt like a gut punch because I didn't see myself as someone who wouldn't be including other people and yet and then I you know, it's still potentially came across that way and that was really just kind of it was hard for me to get to a place where I could just focus on my intent focus on my on what where my heart was and know that that was that my intent was to try to help this pocket that wasn't being helped right now and that I needed to leave helping other groups if you will, to you know, to someone else at the moment. And so that was unexpected so the other thing that was really unexpected was I guess one of the things that were really unexpected was just how much goes into these things you know, like I've attended these events before and I've attended in person I've attended virtual and I just really hadn't given it I remember when I talked to you a few people they're like, Oh, you need to start doing this and this, you know, three, four or five months out Meanwhile, I've got like six weeks and like they'll be fine and they're like, No, it won't, you know, so it was just really understanding that to do these things well takes an immense amount of lead time. And that was much not something I anticipated. So that is why like I'm planning now for for next year because I really didn't start planning heavily until the first of the year so it was really like a four month planning which worked. But you know if I can add a few months to that this round, I definitely will just for sort of my own sanity so that was a big learning of just how much goes into these. So when you attend these events, you know, give a lot of grace to the planners because it's hard It really is there's so many details. So that was something I learned for sure. And then I've already forgotten Jen, what was your other question?

Jen Amos: 29:11

Oh, that was mainly kind of like what are some things you learned? Or what are some things like big epiphanies or maybe beliefs you already had before coming into their treat that the retreat helped affirm Yeah,

: 29:23

yeah that so that was the one I was thinking of. So I think from in terms of where it you know, when I sat at the end of it all and you know, I remember when I finished the very last thing of the day my daughter had been you know, so patient for months right? And so I told her I said, Okay, as soon as this event is over, we're gonna go do something you and me so she and I went and got pedicures, right? Like we just did something. But then I remember that night my husband and I, we had kind of we take the dog on a walk, and I just talked and talked and talked and talked for 30 minutes, you know about all the things and all the things about it that were so incredible. But I think the biggest Kind of aha moment that happened as a part of that planning. And a part of that execution was just really understanding that there really just isn't a lot that is wrapping its arms around. spouses of transitioning service members, nor spouses have recently transitioned service members, those two areas, we just, we have so many resources, so many. But at least from what I can tell, and from what spouses are telling me, there just isn't a lot that's really helping that area. And so it was kind of affirming to hear that through the survey, like as I read through the survey results, and people felt like this was, you know, kind of the first opportunity they've had to talk about some of these things with someone who gets it. And I think what Jenny Lynn said earlier, like, that was really the thing that was amazing is to see people feeling like, oh, you're in the same season. I mean, you really understand what this what this is like, and I'm on camera with you. You're not this, you know, mysterious Facebook comment that's being made. I don't know who that's coming from. You're someone I can connect with and build a relationship with, and how much I think that was just needed by people to have the ability to do that. I think I kind of underestimated the I mean, I hoped it would have an impact, right? I hoped that ability to build community would happen. But I kind of underestimated how much some of the attendees really needed that. And that I think, is where they're like, Okay, what are we doing it again, like that's where that comes from? Is this desire to continue to build that network for themselves, and broaden that community around these conversations? So they feel like they have the information, they have the support? They know what what those first and second steps might look like? And if they don't, they now have someone that can lean on to see what their experience was. So I think that was a couple of lessons. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 31:49

no, that's great. And I really like how, you know, despite the feedback you may have received about like, Oh, are you excluding, like people who are not seasoned spouses are these not for like the younger spouses, I love that you still kind of stuck to your guidance and focused on your intent of making seasoned spouses feeling seen, because and jennylyn knows this, we did a recording recently about just how holding down the fort is really putting more of our focus toward seasoned spouses, because in everything that we've done, and all the interviews I've done, one thing I have found is just that kind of lack of education or lack of resources, or just lack of, I guess, support for that weird Limbo state. I think we're seasoned spouses. And so it's part of even our mission, what's God and I do to, you know, not just educate transitioning service members on what they need to know, let's say about finance, but actually making it what do you call it, like, making sure we include the spouse in that decision making as well. And there's just so little information around that. So just, you know, kudos to you for one having this theory of like, oh, they're not theory, but this experience of feeling like there's not enough resources, but to have this retreat, and to actually be affirmed, you know, through everyone's feedback of like, wow, this is incredible. Like, when are we going to do this? Again, I love that this community, these are my people, you know, as as genuine often says, These are my people. When can I see you again? When can we all like commune again, I think is absolutely amazing. And you should definitely give yourself a pat in the back, you and your team, for all the good work that you've done. And just a short matter of months,

: 33:18

you know, something you said earlier, I think is very fitting or very true in terms of what happens that as season passes, as folks who've been around the block for a while, I think there often is this idea that we have the answers, or we've seen the resource, or we know what's out there. And if I've learned anything, through this experience, the number of resources I've been exposed to in 15 months that I had never heard of in 15 years, is really, really sad, frankly, somebody today who was talking about transition, I'm like, oh, haven't looked at this, haven't looked at this, haven't looked at this. And you know, now I know these things, because I'm in this space. But I think often there is this idea that if you've been around just by longevity, you have that depth of experience and depth of knowledge around resources that just doesn't exist, because the resources frankly, change. Yeah. And they evolve and new ones come up all the time that are doing amazing things for our community. And so I think I've been around, you know, 17 years, but there's a whole lot I don't know. And so I think it is this misperception that just because I've been around a long time, there isn't a need to invest in us in the same way. And I totally get that, right. Like, we're gonna be staying until whenever, you know, my husband decides to retire, right? So like, I am hooked now, right? So you're not trying to keep me as part of the military community. And so I understand the investment in younger spouses and I fully fully support that. But I think there is this weird thing that happens around that kind of mid career mark, if you're a Career Service member, where it's like, Oh, you've been doing this 10 or 12 years. Oh, you've got this figured out. Now. You know, where it Find the resources, you know how to do a transition? Well, you know, things that are not intuitive necessarily. And I think that's the disservice. And hopefully, you know, we are a small, small fish in a very big pond of trying to help seasoned spouses, get connected with each other, get connected with resources, understand how to really own the transition as a family, so that it can go well for them. So hopefully, we're doing our little

Jen Amos: 35:24

part of that. Yeah. And again, I really have to just give kudos to you for your vulnerability and transparency in this because I know that in the many conversations I've had with seasoned spouses, or even just with Jenny Lynn, it's like, there is this weird, I mean, not weird, there is sort of maybe the sense of shame that like, you should have known it by now, I should have figured this out by now. And therefore, because I don't, I don't want to talk about it, I want to act as if, right. And then there's this, you know, sense of imposter syndrome, in a sense. And so I just want to thank you again, for your vulnerability. I don't think it's easy to talk about this feeling like you've been in the space for so long, but you quote unquote, should know. So just thank you. I can't emphasize that enough. Because like I said, I think someone in your situation would not want to talk about these things as openly. And I'm so glad that you are genuine, you were nodding a lot. So I thought I would check in with you.

: 36:14

I mean, at 1,000%, I agree with what Jen said about like the resources. I mean, I lived in San Diego for five years, like almost day to day like date to date, like literally five full years. But it wasn't until I began working for a military and veteran service organization, that I even knew the depth and breadth of things in San Diego, and then, you know, became part of the council that kind of tries to wrap its arms around all the things just in San Diego, I mean, that's just San Diego, not nationwide. And that sometimes there is a very much like a should, too, if you've been around this long, you should have all of these things you should know all of these things. And I'm here to tell you like, it wasn't until I started working for an MSO that I realized just how much was even available to me because Jen's Right. I mean, there are 1000s of organizations that support military families in a variety of ways. I mean, everything from like food insecurity to, you know, couples retreats for people that just got off deployment, like, the span is far and wide. But there are so many, it's hard to know. And like I want to bring it back to like focusing on seasoned spouses, you know, for the people that may have felt like, Oh my gosh, it's only focusing on seasoned spouses, where do the new ones fit to that, I would say you're welcome to join, there is a depth and breadth of wisdom in that room. I mean, it was a virtual room, that quite frankly, for me as a young spouse being connected to those people who have already been around 1520, Heck, even like 10 or 12 years, have made every bit of difference in my spouse journey, that I would not be the person I am today were it not for having been connected with people who had done this a decade or more longer than I had, you know, when I got married. And I just think that because you know, things are changing. And there's a need for dual income. And there's a need for a lot of things like some of the things that have been like pillars and military communities are not so much there anymore. And so there's not the place to meet those people that are going to shepherd you through this life. And you know, another maybe not unique but also unique aspect of military spouses. I mean, this morning, I told you guys offline, I did not sleep well, because my AC died last night right before I went to bed, so it was low, hot and humid. And the first place I went for resources, because even though I grew up in Hampton Roads, I did not grow up in this city of Hampton Roads. Was the military spouse page to ask, Who do you guys use for AC? And don't you know, I have 10 or 15 comments. And, you know, I think that especially in this community where you're constantly new and you're constantly moving, like having that trusted voice of other spouses is just such a comfort, you know, and something that I value greatly. And so to have a space for, you know, genders, gathering all these seasoned spouses to discuss their, you know, experience, strength and hope like, hey, new spouses, you need not feel left out like, you're always welcome. And also we're going to be talking about things that are in our first appointment that aren't our first but we can all learn together and keep moving forward together. And I think it just speaks so much to like the strength of committee. Unity.

Jen Amos: 40:00

While said,

: 40:01

I totally agree, I think the mentorship piece is so important. And this is maybe always work and isn't always easy. And it's sometimes something you have to really seek out. And it can take time and all of that. But I do think there's a lot to be learned. And I mean, there's still a ton that I learned from New spouses all the time, right? So I think it's really understanding how much of a two way street the entire continuum of military spouse DME is, right? So there's so much to be learned in every direction. And figuring out how to tap into what you specifically need for your specific season, I think is part of an ownership we all have is to figure out what is it I need right now to really do this well, and then seek those things out. And if you don't know where to seek them out, then ask anyone, right? Anyone else that you know, because jubelin? To your point, right? You could ask just about any question. And while there are exceptions to all the rules, generally speaking, most of the spouse pages tend to be helpful, right? If you're looking for a certain resource, there will be someone who has been exposed to it, who has seen it, who knows something about it, or know somebody who does. And so it's just a matter of, I think, Jen, what you were talking about it just kind of being vulnerable enough to go, I do not know this answer, but I need to know it until I'm coming here. And I almost think younger spouses honestly do that better. I feel like all the time, it's like, here's what I need, who can help me, you know, I think that's awesome. That's exactly what I wish, you know, I would have done 15 years ago, because I think I would have learned more. And I would have grown, you know, maybe not differently or better. But I think there's a lot of richness that could have come from the experiences earlier on if I had realized how much those kind of mentorship relationships could have been valuable to me that I just didn't. So I do think there's, you know, we all need slightly different things, because we're all in slightly different seasons. But ultimately, we're all part of this community. And we all can lean on anyone within it, if we so choose.

Jen Amos: 41:57

Yeah, I think it's really taken advantage of the communal spirit that we have in this military community. And sometimes it's about setting that example for other people to know that it's okay to ask for help no matter what season you are in this military life. Wonderful, everyone, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Jen, is there anything else that you want to make sure you share with our listeners, before we go?

Unknown Speaker: 42:21

No, I feel like we like it was

Jen Amos: 42:24

out today,

: 42:25

I think it's been a really interesting year. For me, personally, I feel like getting involved in this effort has really kind of helped, it's helped me just see it all through a slightly different lens. And to really have this appreciation for folks who are able to do this really well, openly, honestly, you know, with the kind of strength that I hope I can channel when I need it. But I've just been kind of so impressed with with what the military space is able to provide. If we're willing to ask them, we're willing to tap into it. And we're willing to say we need support around whatever it is, you know, I think that's probably my most important thing is just, you know, if you don't feel like you're in a great space right now, you know what would help you and then reach out to someone and ask for a connection to that thing, because somebody knows and somebody can help connect you. And it might be a little bit of a breadcrumb trail you might have to follow, but it's usually worth it. It's worth putting in that investment to invest in yourself. And to be sure that you are giving yourself what you need to continue on this journey from a place of strength and not from a place of just sort of hanging on and surviving.

Jen Amos: 43:30

Yeah, absolutely. It sounds to me that you have a little more reassurance with everything that you've been doing and experiencing. And I'm just glad that we had the opportunity to capture you at this time in your life right now. You know, to catch up and see how you've been doing since the last time we talk. So I just want to thank you again, Jen for you know, being in community with us and joining us here again on holding down the fort, podcast and we'll be sure to provide information for people to get a hold of you but just so we can say it verbally Why don't you let people know how they can contact you if they want to reach out.

: 44:02

So pride and grit is just pride and grit calm. And then both for Facebook and Instagram. That's our handle as well. And then I'm not really on Twitter. Technically I am but it's pride energy. If I ever sort of get myself over to the twitterverse then you'll find me there.

Jen Amos: 44:19

Awesome. I although I am on all socials, I often tell people to subscribe to the newsletter because I'm like, well that's like Like, if you really want to engage with me, if you really want to know the latest updates, subscribe to the newsletter because I just cannot you know, like I have so many different social media accounts for different brands on top of even my own accounts, I'm like just newsletter, okay, this is the best way to get a hold of me genuine any closing thoughts from you that you want to share with Jen or to our listeners before we go

: 44:45

anytime we can have jumped on. It's a great, great conversation. And I'm just, again grateful for people in the community who are looking out for the community who bring us all together in community and so I'm grateful for a conversation to Say

Jen Amos: 45:00

yes, community, community community. And I think that's the key word of today, community conversation. I mean, that's really what our show has really evolved to is focusing on that community building aspect through the conversations that we have. And to understand that it is ever evolving and that we need it as often as we need a shower, right? Like you need to continually have these. I mean, I hope that people actually, but you know what I mean, you know what I mean? Otherwise, let me go wrap this up now. Thank you all again, so much for joining us. I feel full and having this conversation again. So thank you, Jen, for joining us, and of course, Daniel and for co hosting with me and to our listeners. Thank you all for listening. We hope you got a lot of value from today. And with that said, we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.