139: "Your resume isn't focused on where you've been. It's focused on where you're going." Reinventing yourself for post-military life with Lori Norris

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show season six of holding down the fort. I am your Creator, and co host, John Amos. And as always, I have my amazing co host with me, Jenny Lynn stroupe. Gentlemen, welcome back. And more importantly, welcome back now that you're not traveling as much.

Speaker 1 0:16

Thanks. Glad to be here today. It has been a while.

Jen Amos 0:20

Yeah. Why don't you let our listeners know at the time of this recording what you were up to last week in DC.

Speaker 1 0:25

cheon that honored all of the: 2022

Jen Amos 1:02

Awesome. I love it. I think that's super awesome. And I'm so glad that you were able to go out there and do a lot of networking and even meeting our guests in person. I mean, you were able to meet a lot of our guests in person that I even had a chance to meet yet. So I just love that you were all able to get together and take that group photo. And of course to our listeners, you'll be able to see that group photo in an upcoming newsletter. So congrats, again, genuine, and also to all the other spouses that were out there representing. And yeah, just really happy to know that you were out there, like showing up for us.

Unknown Speaker 1:33

It was a lot of fun. It was definitely my pleasure.

Jen Amos 1:36

Yeah, well, with that said, we are excited because we have another incredible guest here feel like every guest that comes on is now like officially part of the whole now in the Ford family. Because we just you know, just like how you were able to see some of our guests in person, you know, we hope to continue to stay in touch with people who are on our show and continue to follow their journey. So without further ado, we are really excited to bring on Laurie Norris. And a little bit about Laurie Norris is that she is a military transition resume expert, the host of lessons learned for vets podcast in which Scott and I had a chance to be on her show. So thank you Laurie for that. And she is an expert in job search education as well as resume building. So without further ado, Lori, welcome to hold down the fort.

Speaker 2 2:18

Thank you both for having me. It's always interesting to sit on the other side of the microphone now that I have my own podcasts. So

Jen Amos 2:25

yeah, you get to witness us and all of our, what's the word genuine that I'm looking for? You gotta you gotta just be

Unknown Speaker 2:34

excited. I'm not the only one that has these issues.

Jen Amos 2:37

een teaching job search since: 2002

Speaker 2 3:05

orce base as a educator since: 2005

Jen Amos 4:47

Yeah, I mean, thank you for what you're doing for our transitioning service members. And we'll get into this a little bit later. But I think it's so interesting how you know, you had to learn the military language where you know, in way, this is actually amazing. It kind of reminds me of my friends who, let's say, decided to teach English like overseas. And it's about like trying to learn the other people's language to try to help them understand the English language. It's like what you're doing is you're helping service members translate their work and their experience in the military into the civilian world. But it does require a whole different language. And because you have lived and breathed than existed in that space and work in that space, like, it seems like you are like kind of the perfect bridge for our transitioning service members to work on writing their resume and doing job search. So I just want to just say kudos to you for doing that work. I'm sure it's not easy, considering how it's a whole different world. But I am curious to know, Laurie, if you can go back to that time when you first started volunteering, you know, what are some, I guess, like military jargon, or things that you picked up? You're like, wow, I didn't know that. Like I that's, that's a very interesting thing. That's a very unique thing to the military experience that I didn't even know as a civilian.

Speaker 2 5:56

Well, I think the biggest thing that I was so surprised by is how similar the military experience is to the private sector, that there are so many transferable skills, I think that most civilians that don't know anything about the military thing, like, Oh, it's so different, they do things absolutely differently than we do in the private sector. And that's really become my mission is to help people understand that it's really not that different. We just have to talk about it differently. And so I can't really say there's like any one thing that I can put my finger on and say, Oh, that's, you know that that's so surprising. But I think, probably if I have to look at it, like the most surprising thing to me, is that no one is talking about this. And it's time to leave. Why aren't we having this conversation about what's next? Until you know, it's like six months before they were supposed to go? And it's like, how long did they spend helping them become a airman a sailor soldier, you know, a Marine. And now we're saying like, okay, get out. Here's five days, go figure it out. Like, yeah, that was the most surprising thing to me to watch, to be quite honest with you. Yeah,

Jen Amos 7:11

you know, Jenny, Lynn and Matthew are starting starting to ask themselves that question when we're going to get out. So she's hearing this from the inside. And so genuine. I'm curious what your thoughts are. And if you have any insight to Lori's just big question of like, how come? Does it take to the very end for our service members and spouses to kind of, I guess, wake up to the opportunity of transition, or prepare,

Speaker 1 7:32

I would say, based on this current season of life, the reason many people don't have those conversations earlier is because it feels like life is a wide open fire hose right now. And it is just you are taking whatever assignment day by day, hour by hour and trying to both survive and thrive in that season. So to add, the burden of trying to plan for the future is a lot. I mean, like you said, Matthew and I, I mean, we're at four and a half years is not that anyone's counting. You know, and we we do have those conversations, because I've been involved in this podcast and know what you and Scott do and we've had on great guests. And also there are many days we look at each other. And we're like, so we're gonna book and go to bed. That sounds great. Like because the pace of life right now is really fast and trying to make any like headway on future plans. It feels like more than more than we have space for right now.

Speaker 2 8:41

And I totally understand that I but I will, I will tell you like I'm not talking about like a year out two years out. I'm talking like, in your first four years in the military, we need to start teaching servicemembers like what they need to think about in 20. Like, I don't want to teach them this so that they say, Oh, I could do better in the private sector. I want to teach them how to manage their military career better, how to make informed decisions about what certifications they pursue, what additional education they pursue, like, you know, how do they set themselves up financially for the future? I think those are all things that we need to start talking about in like that first, like intro to leadership course that we give it to be just an annual Okay, let's check in on our career. Let's check in on our planning process, so that it can be a little tiny bite sized chunks every year. So it doesn't have to get all dumped on you like a fire hose in the tap class where you're only going to remember 10% Of what's taught to you right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 9:51

I completely agree. It's funny. I have been a longtime champion and counter pursuer of so the Navy which I've found every service does it differently, which also makes it hard, like Department of Defense wide. But the Navy, you know, has a class for prospective CEOs, commanding officers that, depending on what they're going to do their spouses come to part of that. And they make like a command charter basically of like, what it's going to look like when they're in command. How involved is their spouse going to be? And what does involvement look like? But you're talking about people, they're, like, 15 plus years in, and I'm over a, you know, I've talked to several spouse friends who've gone through that. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, that was so great. Like, we talked about how we were going to do this. And I'm like, I think that's awesome. But why are we waiting until 15 years in like, Matthew was, you know, he'd been in 10 months when we met. Like, you know, I mean, I've been with him from the beginning. And, you know, now that I've had conversations with people who are transitioning out or have been in much longer than than he has, I'm going, Hey, why don't we have that? So I am totally on board for like, yeah, not only should we teach you to be a good sailor, marine soldier, etc, like, we need to help, like, have that programming on like, and how do you do this afterward, because especially coming from a mental health perspective, the amount of training and like the amount of like self worth tied up in what we do as military members and family members, we see a lot of people transitioning out there have a really hard time because they haven't been taught that there's anything other than being a great sailor, soldier, marine, airman, you know, etc. Guardian, I guess it's the new one.

: 11:46

No, no, you're right. I think that helping people see who they are, apart from their uniform, is, I think, a big part of how smooth their transition goes. After the military. So you're absolutely right about that.

Jen Amos: 12:03

Yeah, and, you know, gentlemen, and hearing you talk, I just want to like kind of take this time to acknowledge that spouses and service members, and really, our families are doing the best they can to, you know, shameless plug hold down the fort, and, you know, really live that day to day. And it's interesting, because, you know, in talking with my colleagues, who didn't have families in the military, I have to constantly remind them like a It's not that, for example, the spouse doesn't care about this stuff. It's not that they don't care about long term planning. It's that they have a million things to focus on. And then you're asking them, oh, by the way, you also have to take care of this on top of everything else, it's a lot. And, and so it's just, I just want to take this moment to recognize that our families are doing so much already. And I think it's that constant battle or question of like, how do we, whether it's you, Lori, or what Scott and I do with our company, like, how do we make this transition just easier for you all, like, how do we just make it easy for you to be like, Yeah, that makes sense. Let me just go with that. Or let me choose this, let me make these informed decisions. Because again, we also have that, that fight of the firehose of information that we often talk about, as well. So I feel like that's a constant thing that we're trying to figure out. And so far, I feel like the best way to break through the noise is to be a trusted voice, you know, to really show the community even doing a show like this to show people like, hey, we care, like we want to hear your stories, we want to hear your struggles. We want to know what you're going through right now we want to validate it. And that's why we're here because we want to make your situation a lot easier and a lot more smoother. So yeah, that's just sort of what came to mind for me genuine and hearing you talk and giving us a snapshot of even your current life right now.

: 13:37

What you just said is exactly why I started the podcast in the first place is because I know that there is like a firehose of information that comes at you from tap, and I want to deliver it in bite sized chunks, easier to intake and digest. And like education was the reason I started the podcast. But what I found is that support has been the best value of the podcast because people listen to another veteran stories. And they were like, Oh, I'm not the only one that felt that way. I'm not the only one that can't figure out who I am. I'm not the only one that can't figure out. What do I want to be when I grow up? Right. And so it's like, I'm not the only one that you know, wants to quit my job because I don't like what I'm doing, you know. So I think that that's been a really big value of the show, finding that immunity almost like, I know, it's just somebody in your ear, but it's like, you connect with them and you relate to them. So

Jen Amos: 14:37

yeah, absolutely. I think that we're always going to take a friend's recommendation over a stranger's recommendation, right? And if you can really put yourself out there in a way that you want people to know that you're their friend that you want to support them that you're their number one advocate like yeah, they're more likely to listen to your recommendations. But Laurie, I think what's most interesting about your experiences even though you have mentioned In that, yes, you're a civilian. And yes, your dad is a veteran, but it was like, long before you were even around to know what that military life is like, I think what's unique about you is that you, you did help volunteer teach at the taps program, and really help these transitioning service members, like, you're able to see firsthand what was their mindset. And so tell us a little bit about, I guess, like, what it looks like from the inside to be in those taps program and see these transitioning service members, you know, teaching them about, you know, let's say, resume building, and they're just like, No, maybe a deer staring at headlights.

: 15:34

I think the problem with the job search process, and especially the resume writing process is there's no one right way to do it, like checklists, right? Tell me exactly step by step by step how to do it. And with a resume, that doesn't really exist, right, I can give you lots of best practices, and you know, all day long, but there's no one right way to do it. And I think that's one of the issues that people find is like, well just tell me how to do it. And I'm like, I can't tell you how to do it. Only you know that, right. But I can teach you the process of right of writing that resume. So I think that is one of the biggest frustrations for people. Another one I hear a lot from them is I can't get them to understand. And ya know, if you've ever, like tried to shake someone by the shoulders and say, You have to listen to me, or if you've ever been teaching a class, like you have to understand what I'm saying. But that doesn't really work all that well. And so, right, I think the problem is that service members are told, like people appreciate your service, and they're going to be handing jobs to you when you leave. And both of those things are true, everyone does appreciate your service. And there are jobs available to you because you're well qualified for them. But it's not a given. Right. And you can't expect that employer to understand exactly what you're saying, right. So I always say like the, the onus is on the service member, to help them understand the value of their skills. And the only way you can do that is to learn to speak their language, and to learn to translate your terminology. So I kind of liken it to going to a foreign country that doesn't speak English as their first language. And if you get off the airplane in this foreign country, and you know, they're speaking a different language to you don't get off the airplane and say, All right, I'm here. Everybody needs speak my language now. So you need to change to English, because that's what I speak. So writing your resume with full of military terms, or going into an interview or writing your LinkedIn profile, and only speaking military is like, walking into that foreign country and expecting everyone to adapt to you are just not going to. So absolutely not gonna happen. Right. So those are the big, big things that I see.

Jen Amos: 18:00

It's almost I mean, I want to say this in the most respectful way possible, but it almost seems self centered to expect people to know like what you did in the military and your experience and all that.

: 18:11

I love the analogy of like walking in the park. And I'm like, as you were talking, Laurie, in my head, I was seeing like the LinkedIn profiles I've come across, and I'm like, Oh, this is not like, that is really lovely. And I'm sure you did a really great job at whatever that is. But nobody knows what that is other than other people who did what you did in the military, you know, and also from a spouse perspective, like, I've been involved in a lot of conversations lately about what it looks like to translate our volunteer service, because by that, you know, stereotypically, if you will, like as a group, we're incredible at volunteering, and that it's really hard to figure out what that looks like when you try to transfer it into the workforce. Having just kind of rejoin the workforce myself a couple years ago, you know, that was a big thing. And while I do think, talking about what you do inside the military community is important on your resume, making it manageable for other people who may not know what that means is definitely a good tip. Because it is important, especially if you've done this for like, decades, right? Like, that's a big deal.

Jen Amos: 19:26

Speaking of the military terminology, and the acronyms really that come with it, Laura, you have what you call a free veteran resume self inspection checklist in which our listeners are able to download straight from your website next for vets.com. And in this checklist, you had mentioned that one of the tips you recommend is to free your resume of military terminology and confusing acronyms because, you know, as great as it is, if it's not relevant, like if people can't understand the information, then they're going to think that your experience is irrelevant. So tell us a little bit more about that, and how can our serve service members and even spouses like, be proactive in figuring out how to translate their service to civilian world?

: 20:10

I think that so I want to tell you, I'll tell you a story. So I have my friends know that I work with military service members, and my friend called me. I have a question, and I'm sorry if it's a dumb question, but I keep getting these resumes. And it says that they're an o'clock. One o'clock, and she's like, it's like, it says NC Oh, I see. So I'm guessing you pronounced that in o'clock. One o'clock, right. And it's like, oh, that's Dan. That's an acronym for noncommissioned officer in charge. That's like a manager. And so what I always teach people is don't o'clock the civilians, you confuse them, right? We don't want to do that. And so it is really important that you take that out. I mean, I've seen resumes where they'll put their MLS right there a 21. Bravo. Like, it will, I don't know what a 21 Bravo is, or even exists, but let's just say a 21. Bravo, I should know that. But I know it, let's just say that a 21 Bravo is a diesel mechanic. So instead of putting that 21, bravo, put diesel mechanic, otherwise, you're gonna have no idea that you have experience as a diesel mechanic. So you got to translate, first and foremost, your job titles. And that's the most important thing. You know, like as an example, like in the Air Force, as you move up in the ladder, you become a superintendent, well, in the civilian world, superintendents run our schools, right. And so you've got to think about what those two things mean, differently, right. And so starting with your job titles, and you know, how you translate that job title might depend on the job you're applying for. But you also you need to be realistic. And, you know, you're not a chief executive officer. Even if you're, you know, squadron commander, you're, you're just not like the, the Wing Commander, or the, you know, the battalion commander, you know, isn't even the CEO, right? So you've got to translate your job titles, so that they convey what you do. Because when people skim your resume, they're gonna look at your job titles first. If they don't see something that jumps off the page that says, You've done the job that they're hiring for, they may not even read your resume all the way through. So that's the first step is like starting with that, that job title? And how do you do that? And really, how do you do all of this is, you go out and you start job hunting, first of all, read job postings. And use tools like the O net, the O net has a crosswalk, you can put in your military occupation, your MOS, your moc your AFSC, whatever your sprint of service calls it, you enter that into the O net, and it'll spit out kind of a, here's what we think that translates to. And I recommend you print that out. And then you go out and you enter into that Oh, net, you know, let's say I want to be a project manager, just throw that out there. And I print that out. And I lay them side by side, and I start to draw parallels between the two. And then you start to look at, okay, well, what am I missing, maybe I need to go and learn more about Earned Value Management or, you know, risk analysis, and I can start gathering that education. Now, you're six months out, it's a little late to do that you got other things you got to do. And that's why I want to start thinking about this earlier. So eventually, you can start preparing for that. But those are just some of the ways and then the best way to start learning to speak a new language. And this is groundbreaking, right? But hang out with us civilians.

: 23:47

Right? We're not monkeys, I promise. We are nice people. And we so but you know, informational interviews is a great way to start reaching out to people on LinkedIn, which I know is really scary if you don't know them, but they do really want to help you. If you just tell them, I'd love to have 15 minutes of your time to talk about the career field that you're in, I'm getting ready to wrap up my military career. And I'd really like to gather some additional insight and information, can I get 15 minutes of your time, you're gonna get at least a 50% success rate with people that will say yes, so start doing those informational interviews. And if they say a word, a term that you don't know what it means, just ask them, like you said, Earned Value Management. Like tell me how you use that in your everyday job, right? You know, how I learned to speak military is when someone would say something that I didn't understand and be like, Okay, you got to explain that to me. And then as they were talking, I'm like, oh, that sounds like this. And I throw it back to them. Right. And I do the same thing as I as I talk to veterans and help them with writing their resume. I ask them questions, and I say Tell me if you've ever done this. And they're like, oh, no, I don't deal with compensation and benefits. Like, really, if someone has a Pay Issue, who did they come to, they're like, oh, that's me, I'm the one that has to handle all that. Like, that's compensation. And so they just don't know they don't call it the same thing. And so sometimes that conversation with someone really helps you to I start to identify that you really do have those skills, you just call them something different. And so those are kind of my best resources, job postings, ONET, and informational interviews, I think those are the three best resources are starting to learn to translate your terminology.

Jen Amos: 25:40

And you describing like, how to translate all the military terminology, it gives you an opportunity to reinvent yourself for military life. And interesting because, you know, this doesn't necessarily resonate with me, just because I've been self employed for most of my adult life. So I don't know how to do the resume thing. But my assumption, to write your resume was to go with the titles you were assigned at your previous job in a way. So I love how you're teaching people like well interpret your title so that your potential employer would understand what that means for them and how it could benefit them. Because at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to is employers looking to see how are you going to, you know, help our company move forward, in a sense. And so I really liked that transformation, also kind of opportunity to reinvent yourself.

: 26:22

I'm fascinated to know more about that. Like, let's say you've done the informational interviews, you've gone on that website and figured out like what translatable skills you have, how do you rewrite your resume, like for every job that you want, without having to rewrite the whole thing? I mean, I think that's something that, you know, I've had to do over the course of my career, I have a master's in elementary education. So there for a while, all of my teaching experience was on top right, like, and now I do outreach for military mental health. And so while education is important, and I'm never not going to have my masters in it, like that isn't the thing I lead with, but I would love to know more about how to make you know, how to work on that for like the job that you're looking for. So,

: 27:17

I'll tell you right now that you know, I do resumes, it's kind of what I talk about, I'm gonna be the first one to tell you that a resume is not the first thing you need to do when you're getting ready to transition, right? Even when you're getting ready to just go on a job hunt. Everybody says, Oh, I get my resume done. And while the resume is still important to as much as everybody wants to say it's dying, I've been hearing that for the 22 years I've been in business. So it's dying a very long, slow death. But it's not the most important thing, like the absolute most important thing is focus. Like you have to figure out what you want to do. And you can't write an effective resume until you know your focus until you know exactly what kind of job you're targeting. You can't write a resume that is going to get your phone to ring consistently. And so when you say after rewrite it each time, well, you should have a foundation of a resume that has all the keywords and terms for the industry and type of job you want to target. And then you're just finessing it for the individual company for their mission, their culture, the terms in their job posting. And it shouldn't be a complete overhaul, you shouldn't have to start from the bottom and go, you know, start all over. It should be like, Oh, I have a solid foundation. I've got the walls in place. Now I just maybe need to change the roofline, right. So you're really not doing a complete overhaul each time. And that's, that's why it's so important to have that focus. That's why I talk about it so much. Because if we don't have a focus, our resume looks like that jack of all trades. And we all know what comes next, right? The master of none. And we're basically saying I can do anything, but not really all that well. So we want to show ourselves as a specialist. And the way we do that is once we decide our focus, then we only include the relevant information in our resume and the rest doesn't belong in it. Now, that doesn't mean that if you have you know, like, let's say that I'm a almost think of an example of something I just wrote. So I'm an H back person. I've managed like installation, maintenance repair projects in each back, but I spent, like the middle of my career was in recruiting. I was a recruiter for six years. And so do I leave those six years off? No, I still can include them. But what's most relevant about those six years sales and business development, communication and customer service, and then being able to have an understanding of recruiting and hiring and how Human Resources in HR law so that I can go on and be a really effective manager. Because I'm not going to be out breaking HR laws, right? So it may not have as big a space on my resume as my H fac manager and my earlier H HVAC technician experience, but it still has a place on my resume. And so that's really, it was a really long answer. But that's the way you you just have to identify like, Okay, this position from, you know, 2018 to 2022, what is most important and most relevant, that I think an employer will want to know about this time, as I move forward? Guess and that's the other thing is to think about your resume isn't focused on where you've been. It's focused on where you're going, Well, how do you use where you've been to prove you're qualified for where you're going?

Jen Amos: 30:51

That's a genuine taking notes. And I'm just like, process. I love that. It's like, it's not about where you've been, it's about where you're going. And it's about like translating your work experience into the person you want to be moving forward, or the type of employment you want to have moving forward. So I'm just taking it all in.

Unknown Speaker: 31:11

I was taking copious notes. Thanks for that.

Jen Amos: 31:17

I know these are always like, really good. I mean, we haven't had anyone really talk about resume building on our show, actually. So Laurie, I think, to my knowledge, you're you're really the first one. And so I think that's why Jacqueline and I are just like leaning in and, and hearing everything that you have to say, as we start to wrap up here. So one thing that we talked about offline glory is that in a way, we kind of wished that we didn't call it transition, that this is not transition into civilian life. And so tell our listeners a little bit more about like, kind of what you wish it was really about, or how would you describe it differently.

: 31:49

So to me transition says we're going from one place to another, and then we're done. Right. And to some extent that like that's the way that veterans approach, it is like, oh, getting a job, that's a checklist item, I've checked that box, now I'm done, I can just settle in and write it out for until I'm ready to officially retire. And it doesn't work that way. And we've all heard the statistics of you know, double digit percentage rates of veterans that leave their first job out of the military within six months. When you get into that within a year, it gets up in the 60 percentile, the last thing I saw. And so finding a job, while it's important to keeping a roof over your head, and feeding your children is not like the only part of this. And so really, it's more of a transformation. It's almost like you're coming out of your cocoon of being a service member and figuring out like, am I a moth or a butterfly? And so in a way, you know, what, what color do I want to be? And what are the spots that I'm going to have. And I think really figuring out like, Okay, I'm closing the chapter on that part of my career of my life, and I will always be a veteran, I will always be part of the service where I served. But now I get to go and figure out what I want to do. And so it's more of a, me, it's really a transformation, that now transformation is ongoing, in my land that first job and go, Alright, I got some experience. Now I'm ready to go take on the next challenge. Or, you know, maybe this wasn't the best place for me, I want to try it in a different way. And so the average adult will change careers, not jobs, but careers between seven and nine times in their life. And so if your one career of 22 years was as a service member, and you were aviation maintenance that whole time, you can expect that the next 20 years that you're working, you're probably going to change career paths a couple of times. So, you know, just be open to that change, be open to that adaptability, that transformation that you are going to go through and know that getting a job is really just one part of it. You got to figure out like, how am I going to communicate, you know, for those of you that are retiring like your spouse, thank the Lord has been there holding down the fort, literally, and raising the children and is kind of done it to some extent on their own a big part of that. And so now you're going to come into the fold. And that's going to be different, right? So there's the family dynamic. There's your community. It's always now that you've taken the uniform off when you go back to the place where you serve, you're going to feel different. And so you're now you have to build a new community like find a new tribe of people. There's so many things that go into tree transition that are so much further beyond the job, that my focus is on helping you find the job so that you take that stress and pressure off. And you can focus on all the other things that will help you figure out kind of who you are and how to be happy.

Jen Amos: 35:16

I just love everything that you're saying, Laurie, because it just makes me think about what Scott and I continue to try to do at our company. It's like, can we just get the finances taken care of so that you could just focus on like, who you want to be so that you can just focus on reinventing yourself? Can we please take care of that. And I love that spirit of like, really, this is not about a job like yes, of course, the resume is important. Getting a job is important. But this is your chance to reinvent yourself, this is your chance to maybe explore like who you wanted to be before you joined the military, and so many other things, so many other aspects around that. And so I just I love that spirit. And it makes me hopeful, you know, for our service members. And I hope that our listeners really got a lot out of, you know, hearing you talk today.

: 35:57

I love the reframe of instead of transition transformation. And you know, I think I've seen at least and in Matthew's career, like, I'll speak from personal experience, even if you remain an aviation electronics technician your entire career, every single time you PCs, or you change duty stations, like, yeah, you're still an aviation electronics technician. But none of those jobs are the same. And so I think what people envision in getting out of the service, and becoming as a civilian, again, is like, you kind of spoke to a lawyer about that once and for all, like, well, now I'm not this, I'm gonna be this, when really like, you've transformed the little bits over the last 2030 years, you know, like I said, I've watched my husband, and he's been the same, you know, had the same job title, if you will, like for the since 2010. So for the last 12 years, and yet every single place he's worked at has required a slightly different skill set, and he's done different things with it. And so to assume that you're just going to get out and be a civilian. And that's it. You know, I mean, you haven't done that your whole military career, even if you were always aviation, electronics, technician, whomever, you did something different and transformed a little bit along the way, because you added leadership roles, and you added additional duties and, you know, lived in all different places, which requires a lot of different skills. I've now lived like north, south, east and west, and everywhere we've lived has required a different set of skills. You know, so I just love that reframe is the the transformation, like it's not a one and done. And I think when you can look at it like that, it makes it easier on you, because none of this is forever. And I think there's a big like, sphere there with, oh my gosh, well, no one's forcing us to move in two years, I'm stuck, or this is what I have to do, like from now until forever. This is what I've decided, and this is what we're doing. And actually, you've lived a life of like constant change and transition. So do assuming, Jen, you've talked about this as military kid, like, you assume that like you're all of a sudden gonna get out and just be a completely different, different person. And go, Yep, we're done. That's it. We transitioned. Although, yeah, you know, is a little unrealistic. So I love the reframe to transformation. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 38:36

it's like demystifying the happily ever after story. It's like, hey, it's not happy ever after when you transition out? It's a whole different ballgame. Yeah, yeah. So you know, Laurie, as we, you know, wrap up here. And before we asked, you know, how people can get a hold of you. And, you know, check out your podcast lessons learned for vets podcast. My final question for you is, what is most gratifying about your work? Because you have been doing this for such a long time. There must be a reason why you're continuing why you continue to be in this space.

: 39:04

I love when the light bulb goes off. I love helping people see like, I am qualified to do that. Or I do have that skill. I just called it something that I love to like, turn that on, and for people to go like, I never thought of myself that way. Hmm. I think my my LinkedIn says I'm on a mission to teach veterans how to market themselves. Because you've never really had to do that before. It's it's weak. Right? And so I love helping you say, Okay, great. I was really good part of a team. But this is how I made an impact. And this is the teaching them that having a conversation about what you do really well is not bragging. It's simply stating the facts of what makes you worth the money that you're going to ask them to pay you. And so that's really why I keep doing it as I figure it's the least I can do. If I had joined the military, I would have got bounced out after the first six months, because I don't like to follow rules that don't make sense. So get it, I never would have made it. And so this is the least I could do to serve the people that serve me. And, you know, I've always been around the Air Force base here. And you know, there's F 30 fives flying over my head all day long as I drive around town, and I love it. And I just, that's really why I do what I do is just to help do something that no one is truly teaching effectively out there.

Jen Amos: 40:33

Yeah, it's such a niche, like skill, I think to teach our servicemembers how to transition successfully. And what you're doing is helping them transform and translate their work experience into the civilian world. So Laurie, thank you so much for everything that you do and all that you continue to do. Let our listeners know how can they find you if they want to reach out?

: 40:53

So please look for me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there, you can find the podcast lessons learned for vets podcast on any major provider, or our website is L L for FLR. Or the number for vets.com both to the same place. And you can go to download that veteran resume self inspection checklist at next for vets.com.

Jen Amos: 41:20

Awesome, and we'll be sure to provide that in the show notes as well as the interview that you recently had Scott and I do so thank you again for that. Laurie, it's been such a pleasure having you gentlemen. Any final thoughts? Lori before we go? Nope. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And to our listeners, we hope you got a lot of value out of today's conversation. And with that said, We'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.