146: "Risking is always better than regretting." 30 years of service and paying tribute to Camp Pendleton Marines since 9/11 with Amy Forsythe

Jen Amos 0:00

Alright, hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your crater co host. And as of late, I've decided to pick on a third title that starts with the C first time cat mom. And as always, I have my co host with me who is a seasoned military spouse, mom of two and mental health advocate genuine Stroup. Jennylyn Welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:22

Hey, glad to be here today.

Jen Amos 0:24

Yes, I'm also liking your titles like my titles. I'll start with sees your starts with EMS. I know this is something we established like I think two episodes ago.

Unknown Speaker 0:32

Now we're very matchy matchy all that alliteration.

Jen Amos 0:35

Yes, yes. Yeah, that was the word I was gonna say. And I was like, I forgot what it was. So I'm glad that you said the word alliteration. So we're full of that today. We're pretty excited because I have been reading up on this guest in the recent weeks and just really excited to be speaking with her today. I also want to make sure I try to like be as journalistic as possible. This person we're bringing on today is an award winning military journalist. She currently serves as a PA o in the US Navy Reserve. And in case you don't know what that is, that's public affairs officer. And she's the author of the upcoming book heroes live here, a tribute to Camp Pendleton Marines since 911. Without further ado, we have Amy Forsythe, with us, Amy Forsyth, welcome to holding down the fort.

Speaker 1 1:22

I am so thrilled to be with you ladies today. Thank you so much for having me.

Jen Amos 1:26

Amy, it's a pleasure having you on. Let's go ahead and open up about how you have recently been featured in NBC seven San Diego's channel for your book heroes live here. And I want to open up by talking about this because as a Gold Star family member myself, I really appreciate how you have taken the time to honor our fallen heroes by being able to showcase the memorials and markers on Camp Pendleton. And a lot of these memorials and markers. Ami are not available to the public, you've been able to go in Camp Pendleton to be able to document these for your book. So let's open up and talk a little bit about why this was so important for you to do you know, for our fallen heroes.

Speaker 1 2:13

Well, thank you so much. This book project really wrote itself and really proud to partner with other Marines who have strong ties to the base. But the book chronicles some of the memorials from those Marines who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and their legacy and whether it was across up on the hill, or a stone etched with their name or some sort of tribute that was brought back from Iraq or Afghanistan. Many people don't know what the legacy is of those warriors through that era. And so it was so important for people who don't have access to come on to Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton located in north San Diego County, the book can showcase that and read those stories about those heroes. I just wanted to make sure that people know and for those Goldstar families that we remember, we honor their legacy and attributes to them. And many of them are personal stories for me and I had served with many of them. And so people I knew I just didn't want that memory to fade away. And so putting it together in a kind of a coffee table book filled with a lot of pictures because I know Marines like pictures. So it was just a nice colorful tribute and making sure that their names are captured in those stories and connections are fresh in our memory and our hearts.

Jen Amos 3:34

Yeah, and you mentioned a little bit about how some of this is personal for you. I know that there is a special Memorial called the McClung ridge. In honor of major Megan McClung. Tell us a little bit about what that means for you and also for her family to have a dedicated stone on her behalf.

Speaker 1 3:52

who died in Iraq in December: 2006

Jen Amos 5:38

Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate just humanizing the entire military experience. It's like, you know, often when you think about media, like I've recently been watching the Marvel Cinematic Universe and how they glorify, you know, what it means to serve, you know, Captain America, for example. And yet, you know, the reality is that, you know, the the consequence of it could be Gold Star family members, it could be, you know, these types of situations. And so to be able to just honor that, I think is very special. And I appreciate you doing that genuine considering how you and Matthew were formally stationed in San Diego, I'm curious if you ever had a chance to go to Camp Pendleton.

Speaker 2 6:14

I have been to Camp Pendleton, some for work, I have never done a memorial tour, I've done a real general like this is a giant base here where you can find a couple of things like the exchange and the gas station, and you know, a few other high points on the base. But I am unfamiliar with most of the things Amy touches in her book, which is why I'm really glad that it's out there. Because I mean, even as someone who has access to military bases, there are things like that, that you just pass by every day that unless you knew it was there, it's just there. You know, I mean, who's gonna spot a rock on top of it, to be clear, Pendleton is huge, and very rocky and very mountainous. And to know that there's, you know, something up there honoring somebody is different than just driving around the base.

Speaker 1 7:06

Yeah, it was wonderful to be able to partner with a graphic designer, a Marine veteran, and we built a map to show some of these locations and made those connections in the book. So that's what's really special and a few contributions from other Marines who wrote vignettes in the book to help share their experiences. And so it's really just a partner, a partner project that shared with a few other people that have strong ties to the base. And what I learned in my research, though, is that more Marines from Camp Pendleton, than any other base or station in the country, had suffered great consequences is those who made the ultimate sacrifice from that one base and a constant rotation of deployments through Iraq and Afghanistan throughout the 20 years. And so it was just a really special place filled with those memorials that we, you know, taken might might have taken 10 or 15 years to erect and put together, but they're there. And there's more still, you know, tributes coming through the years and this year marks the 80th anniversary of the base. And so there's a lot of history there, even through World War Two, Korea and Vietnam, and then of this generation, so it's just interesting research and the bass fans 125,000 Square acres along the Southern California coast, that beach, front property is priceless right now in between Orange County and San Diego County, but know that it's a national treasure. And really, it's sort of a national monument if you monuments on a monument but it's a protected for environmental reasons. And just a really interesting protected place with and also rich in California history. So long before it was a military base, there was the California history of when Cal California was under the rule of Spain. And, you know, just the development, it was a working cattle ranch, a sprawling working cattle ranch before that. And so some of the old structures one or two old structures on the base that the Marine Corps preserved this old Adobe home that was connected to the California mission systems. And so they've done a great job at preserving some of that legacy of before it was a Marine Corps Base.

Speaker 2 9:22

Yeah, that ranch house is beautiful. I have driven but I do know where that is. And I have driven by it and is really neat. I mean, I love history. And it is really neat to go on there and realize that amidst the workings of everyday military life, I mean, cuz you can definitely hear ordinates exploding almost all the time. There's like this old, you know, ranch house that that is tied to the startup of California. So it's fascinating to me.

Jen Amos 9:49

You know, I lived in Southern California for 20 years and I definitely you know, it's very common to make that drive from San Diego to Orange County or LA and I have to say I really took Camp Pendleton for granted, you know, is always just kind of that base that you, you know drive by, from that long road from San Diego to Orange County, and it's just there. And then occasionally you can like pull over and like, there's like that one place where you could pull over and see like a scenic view for for a little bit. But I definitely took that for granted. And I'm really excited to take a look at this book to really see what is inside of Camp Pendleton. So I think it's just going to add more. I think it's just going to give me a deeper appreciation of what I had been driving by most, you know, for a good two thirds of my life. In your book you in your book, and I do appreciate you mentioning that it's a collaborative effort. And I think that's a very, that's very humble of you to be like, Yeah, you know, it wasn't just me i It was a kind of a team effort. It was a team effort to make this possible. And in your book. In the description, it mentions that there are more than 150 full color images and beautifully designed graphic illustrations depicting Camp Pendleton Marines involvement in combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I'm curious if amongst 150 full color images, Amy, is there one that you particularly like that you think is worth our readers or listeners taking a look at?

: 11:13

Wow, there's so many. What I'm most proud of though, is the graphic designs that were created by a Marine veteran named Daniel Zimmerman of Devil Dog graphics. And he created these two page spreads that are just so beautiful. And they really did pick what I was after. And so that collaboration effort is what people really love to just, you know, review and look over. But I'll mention that Camp Pendleton is special to me too, because when I was first in the Marine Corps as a young Lance Corporal Marine combat correspondent, I was stationed at Camp Pendleton. And so that's my connection going on 20 Some years and I just really felt that it was sort of home away from home for me. And so coming back here now as kind of all grown up and as a an adult, working as a civilian on Camp Pendleton. It really just is a place that I have such fond memories of deploying to and from and so watching through the years of just the communities surrounding community around Camp Pendleton is second to none, Oceanside, Dana Point, VISTA Fallbrook, these communities have stayed with these Marines and really welcomed them into their homes all throughout the year. And I know your listeners at home can't see. But here just just some of those two, two pages with maps, there's detailed information about the legacy of these memorials. And so being able to have contributors put their words together and showing people we've got an entry from a Navy Cross recipient, an entry from Colonel Greg Martin, who was the CEO, Warrior Foundation were stationed in San Diego, the foreword was written by Lieutenant General Larry Nicholson. And so it's just really a well done book with many entries. And a really just a lot of work went into it. But I know that anyone who was stationed at Camp Pendleton will probably love to see what's inside and sort of like a 20 year cruise book if folks know what that is, because it's just a compilation of photos and stories of the past 20 years with a lot of ups and downs and emotional roller coaster with those constant deployments and our Marines, you know, through the generations through those 20 years, have just cycled through knowing they're going to either go to Iraq or Afghanistan or go on a deployment. But the fact that they still join, knowing the risks, and knowing what's at stake, is something that we as Americans can be very proud that we are still having young people join our militaries, Army, Navy, Air Force Marines, despite the risks that are associated with that, and the long deployments and separations and the danger that is kind of lurking around every corner, whether it's just on being on ship is dangerous or going out in the field can be dangerous. And so we appreciate that service. And make sure we always thank our thank our veterans to for who those who've done that already served.

Jen Amos: 14:25

Yeah, absolutely. I thought I'd ask you, Amy, considering how you have served for decades. What was your original reason for joining?

: 14:35

Well, you know, I went to an all girls Catholic school, high school and but my grandparents had served in World War Two and so my grandfather was a Marine. My grandmother was an Army nurse and they met on the island of Guam during World War Two and then war was over. They came home got married, but I'd always heard of their stories of service and the camaraderie and the Spree decor and I thought Hi, I really want to be Part of that, and growing up near San Francisco, I can tell you that those fleet weeks really make an impact on kids. You know, that's what I remember most is those fleet weeks, those flyovers, the Blue Angels, the Marines and Sailors walking around San Francisco. And I was just so attracted to that. So I joke sometimes I went to an all girls Catholic school where uniform went to school did with the nuns told me to do, the military is not much that different. So you wear a uniform, and you go, and you do with the NCOs. To do and so it was just that natural progression. But I guarantee that no one saw that coming in. I know my high school, my family, they just thought it was crazy that I wouldn't make it that I wasn't suited well for military life, and which is even more of a kick. And I said, well watch me, then I'll do it. And I will stick it out. And sure enough, here I am. 30 years later, it'll be 30 years in February that since I stepped on the what they call the yellow footprints for a Marine. When you go to boot camp, you step on these yellow footprints, and you wait for the drill instructors to come start yelling at you. So I'm very proud to continue serving and you know, it was just that draw to patriotism really through my family that inspired that. And after Desert Storm, Desert Shield, Desert Storm is really when I said I, I want to do that I want to serve my country. And so And today, kids, you know, they have all options for them. But we, you know, in the for those who choose to serve, it's not because they don't have other things to do. But it's a life a noble life and noble cause it's hard work. And I wouldn't have traded it for anything, I wouldn't have no regrets. And hopefully we can show especially other you know, younger girls and women that serving is not scary. It's done out of the realm and serving in a leadership position. Certainly just rolling with the punches and keep going and knowing in your heart that that's the call tonight, it's more of a calling really, as you guys know, both all too well. It's a calling for those people who join and want to protect and defend our country.

Jen Amos: 17:13

Yeah, I'm hearing you talk. And I completely agree with you, like even someone such as myself, who's a Gold Star family member. Now, you know, having been married to a veteran spouse 20 years later to who's still very much involved in the military community, I get it. And I get why even with everything that comes with the military life, the draw of doing something for the greater good, the nobility of it, like you said, there's nothing like it, and also the camaraderie and the understanding that comes with that. I mean, it's very rare to find that type of collaborative, you know, camaraderie, feeling anywhere else. But I think in the military, even as someone who is a civilian now, we're hosting this show, because I'm so drawn to the community till this day. Gentlemen, I'm sure you have some thoughts and want to check in with you. Well, one,

: 18:00

I'm really glad for the week works. As a public affairs officer, spouse, we've spent many an hour at a Fleet Week, you know, it's good to know that that is excellent for recruitment. So what made us go from active duty to reserves like, Why stay longer, you know, why continue to serve and, and try and balance you know, we have several friends who are reservists and listening to their stories of balancing the civilian and military world is fascinating to me, because as a military spouse, I feel like I am the bridge between those worlds all the time, I am a civilian, who also has a military ID card, and I can go on base. But our reserve friends, when I hear how, you know, they're, you know, C suite level folks at these companies, and then they get caught up to reserve duty and all of a sudden, they're back on base. I tried to do that imbalance, both like What's it look like? And what was the draw to go from active duty to reserve and try to balance those things?

: 19:03

Well, for me, I served eight years of active duty, my initial two enlistment really and you know, they say at that eight year mark is kind of either your jumping off point are you going to stay in and so I had a decision to make that back in those days. And this was 2000, where they didn't really have an online college opportunities. You had to take college classes the traditional way during the week and during the day and so my Draw My goal to return to college and finish what I had started before I joined the Marines. So I really felt like but I didn't want to leave the Marine Corps I was still loving the lifestyle and my friends and the opportunities. So I stayed in the reserves while I worked my way through college, my undergraduate degree and found it to be different than active duty but with so many benefits and so many great opportunities to kind of cherry pick the assignments and still kind of have a handle And then when 911 happened, I knew I was going to be deployed and definitely felt a calling to be available to deploy and serve. And sure enough, I got mobilized and deployed to Afghanistan, those early days in 2002. And so it was just like, wow, I'm too far deep. Now, I can't leave, you know. So I, I stayed in the Marines for a total of almost 18 years with active and deployed. So I got mobilized three times, four times while I was in the Marines in the reserve, but I had ended up finishing my bachelor's degree finishing my master's degree using my GI Bill, but I couldn't have done it really, if I wasn't in the reserves, because it was like the best part time job, really to sustain not only the income, but access to the commissary and the gym, and the lifestyle. And so but I was always willing to go on, you know, special assignments and deployments and help my unit with writing stories and things that they needed for public affairs wise. So that was the draw. And then the Navy opportunity came as a direct mission program where they bring in people who are either prior service, or they are office professionals working in the industry and bring them in to create just an amazing cohort of public affairs officers, especially, that are working in these high level jobs with very high profile positions in government and media and industry. And so being a part of that is just a really unique and special opportunity. It's sort of a built in way to network. And I've had nothing but great opportunities, assignments offered to me, so why not continue to serve where I can. And so that's kind of where has led me over the past 30 years to stay in the reserves. And I love it, because I can also recruit now, too, I get oftentimes asked, well, how do you like it? Or how can I join, and so it's very competitive, I wouldn't want to be competing right now entering because the competition and the the level of proficiency with these candidates and applicants is so strong, really, top people want to serve like they're making big money, six figures, seven figures, whatever, but they still want to continue serving our nation. And that's speaks a great deal about the prestige and the honor that comes with burning uniform. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 22:34

I love hearing that. Because when we were talking in the pre interview, one of the topics we wanted to discuss was the military having a top talent issue. So it sounds to me that things are turning around, or at least in your opposite, what do you think your observation? Well, you

: 22:50

know, I do think in those really competitive programs, like direct commissioned officer, or as a way to come into the military, there's different programs to come in through college or after. But a new report just came out that enlistees are having a hard time sort of recruiting these eligible candidates. And so we always want to raise the bar of who are who we can bring in or who's really interested in these programs, because, you know, they said that only nearly 25% are even eligible of those who really wants to serve. And so we want to attract these top talent of young Americans who can go to college or do anything they want. But we definitely want. And I think that we it's all up to every single person in uniform to share their story that will inspire the next generation and say, I want to be like that person, instead of just taking our bottom rung of people who either don't want to go to college and don't want to work sometimes has been the model of okay, you can either go to jail or go in the military and like, well, then what does that do for me? Like, why are you giving me a bunch of like delinquents, you know, to join the military. And that's not what the military is about. We need competent, professional, dedicated, patriotic people willing to learn and willing to serve. And so attracting that top talent requires every not just the recruiting commands, but it requires everyone to tell their stories. And that's where the veterans come in, is it veterans can tell their success stories about others, excelling in entrepreneurship, or landing great jobs and really thriving in their life after the military. That in of itself is one of the top recruiting aides to help showcase all the great work that veterans are doing.

Jen Amos: 24:43

And yeah, I think like the general like good well and good press. Veterans is really to your advantage. And I really love that you describe this because I think about my own personal experience like growing up in a military town like San Diego. A lot of my Friends being military kids, and unfortunately, a lot of them joined for the economic opportunities because they weren't college dropouts, or they couldn't hold a job, or they didn't want to hold a job. Or they were, you know, still living with their parents in their 20s, Young 20s. And the parents were like, hey, you know, you got to do something with your life. And so that was sort of the impression I was coming from is, you know, the military is the fallback to the fallback. Like if you can't make it to your SIR, if you can't make it to a certain college, then you're joining the military. But it was really until I met my husband, who is at West Point grad, and joined for that he joined for the altruistic side of the military, you know, for the greater good of America in a sense. And to be able to see, in that perspective, we were actually having this conversation recently, because we're talking about like, you know, wanting to have kids and stuff or like, you know, I think at the bare minimum, we should encourage our kids to serve at least four years, and, you know, join some kind of Academy because there is so much benefit to, and I'm saying this as a Gold Star family member, like, I would say, if I didn't have the traumatic experience that I had, I think I would have joined, I think I would have served for a couple years just because of all the benefits that come with it, of course, not just the military benefits, but again, that goodwill of the community, people perceiving you as Oh, you're a veteran, let us help you. Let us, you know, there's a ton of resources for veterans. So I do appreciate you kind of elaborating more on that perspective.

: 26:21

Well, it's fascinating you and Scott, were just talking about the academies, Matthew and I had a very similar conversation the other night, in fact, he's called up a friend of ours at the Naval Academy to see if they do summer tours for kids, because he's like, you know, I want to start laying that groundwork now. Yeah. You know, it's fascinating, as somebody who grew up in a military area, I'll be it a little further. And then inland in Norfolk, Virginia Beach. And you know, I've said this before, like, the Navy was always that thing over there in Norfolk and Virginia Beach, that, as someone who grew up in Hampton Roads knew about but it didn't affect my day to day life. And so, you know, I didn't grow up in this community where everybody served. I mean, we had one person that I can recall in my high school whose dad was in the Navy, you know, and it what's fascinating about RIT, you know, people joining in retention now is that it is mostly military kids that are there, the largest group of people joining the service are the people that grew up this way. Yeah, but just It's fascinating to me as a military spouse who grew up in a military area that it was never a track, I considered like not even a little bit a it just never crossed my mind. That that was a thing. Now, people from my high school went to different service academies are like Virginia Military Institute, you know, and then I went to a school with a corps of cadets and have some friends who are now in the Navy that served in the Corps, but it's still it, like, never clicked with me, but to be a mom of like military kids growing up in this. And to hear them say it's funny with like, each job, my husband has they changed, like what they're going to do in the military, like, based on like, where he is, you know, but to hear them think that like, that's, that's an option for them. I mean, of course, right now at 11 and 12, its major league baseball player or United States Navy. So, you know, one may end up working out better than the other. But I let you know, I agree with Amy, I do think that we have an opportunity as either veterans or military family members to tell the stories and tell them Well, I think, for me personally, it is finding that line between the heart and the good and being truthful about both because I would never want to present this lifestyle in a way that intentionally deterred or intentionally, like misled people from joining, but I feel there's such benefit from being part of this community, if all you ever get out of it is community and there's 10,000 Other things you can get out of it, but the community for me is where it lands. And so, you know, I do I do hope that that the work we do on this show and the work Amy does is a you know PEO and military journalists gets the word out about you know, how great it is to be a part of this community.

: 29:16

That's so true. And I'll mention I was in your the first category you mentioned, I was 22 when I joined, I was sort of struggling through college and working but I in my heart, I knew that I really wanted to be in the military. My parents discouraged it. That's why I didn't go right when I was 18. So I said you know before I get too much older, I am going to do this and so, um, or you know, there's so an every cross strategy they're joining when you're late because you're not really sure what you want to do or go into an academy and everyone in between. So you can make it if with hard work, you can achieve whatever so you can completely stratify i the whole spectrum. For those people who are I want to say, like late bloomers like me who didn't really have the means to go to college. And so that's what's wonderful about the military, there are pathways for people to enlist, and move along the rank structure. And so all it really requires is, you know, that you give your best effort, and you take advantage of opportunities for people to, you know, join and patriotism and believing in that we right now, our nation needs that all hands on deck to try to solve some of our most complicated challenges and problems. But an AI was coming up in the 80s, where it was like post Vietnam. So being in the military was not very popular, or there were no resources. And so I love to have seen how it's been completely transformed. And so there's the thank yous and the honor for the veterans. And so I just love to be able to see that for our new veterans that people do appreciate their work. And so as a country, we've, we've really shifted colors on that and done a done on one ad. And so it's great to be a part of that. But to be the one saying thank you to our veterans too, you know, as being able to honor them so that we can make sure that the next generation is knows that they're going to be appreciated. And I think that's kind of what people are looking for nowadays, if they're able to serve and, you know, and of course, their families, too, comes with the territory, that it's not just the service member. As you both know, it's the ticket family package. And it's part of the lifestyle. And that takes a big commitment, not just on the service members part but the entire family.

Jen Amos: 31:47

Yeah, one more thing I want to add, since we're doing like a recruiting commercial here

Unknown Speaker: 31:54

is welcome, DOD.

Jen Amos: 31:57

I was actually talking about this with Scott, my husband, and we're saying like, you know, the military is one of the longest institutions in America where you can still climb a corporate ladder. Yeah, you know, and so that's something to keep in mind. And, you know, considering you're talking about how you started when you were 22. Amy, I know, Matthew genuine started a little later, himself and I recently Yeah, and I recently, one of my good friends that I recently caught up with her husband started when he was 28. You know, so I do know that there is a cap, but you know, for the most part, to know that there is a system in place on how to climb the corporate ladder in the military is it's there, the system is there. And so anyway, if you're interested, go visit?

: 32:37

No, it is funny, you bring that up, Jim, because I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking, I am at a point personally, as a military spouse, where for the first time really in my military spouse life, I'm able to have a career. And what does that look like? And I have really started turning that question over and like, well, you know, there's some jobs available to me that, that they're gonna, they're great jobs, but you're always going to be whatever that thing is, there is no moving up. And I think, you know, being able to walk alongside Matthew and his career, and I mean, he's a Mustang, he transferred from enlisted to Officer, like, you know, I've seen every, at every state, you know, I met him when he was airman Stroup. And now he's, you know, he's Bo, you know, so, you know, I have, I've walked that journey with him, and so to, to look at it for myself, and go, you know, upward tenure is something that, you know, growing up, I really aspired to, like, what does that look like now that I get to have a career and I do have that military mindset of like, I would like to grow and change and move up and have more leadership opportunity. And it's really set the tone for me looking forward to my next, you know, personal endeavor of like, what that looks like, but it's such a great structure, and it is one of those places that still remains is like, hard work and effort, do pay off and like do bring more leadership opportunities and, you know, growth and I think that it's fascinating to me that you can have the same title and I don't mean rank, but like public affairs officer, like and you can work with, I mean, Matthew has worked across every single organization within the Navy, aside from submarines. So like he's touched every, you know, air and SWOT and all the things too many Navy acronyms there for non Navy listeners, but you know, and yet he's always been a public affairs officer, but his job has changed and he's gotten to do new and different things. And I find that so fascinating. on the civilian side, sometimes it's hard to find. And Jen, I know you've mentioned multiple times, you know, you're an entrepreneur because cuz you're like, oh my god, I can't see an irregular job like this lifestyle really affected, like, how you perceive to work. And for me I know it's it's made a difference in such a good way because I I know now like the value I bring to the table and like that moving up thing is important to me.

: 35:18

Yeah, no indeed, I noticed that. So I got married a little bit later in life I was 40 when I got married, and I didn't really know the challenges that military spouses had, because I really wasn't one and I wasn't in tune with it. But my husband as well, we moved to Guam for my civilian job, but finding a balance for him to suffer women who want to marry someone who might be a higher earner. And there's so many more dynamics to it. So recruiting women into the military and serving, so long as their spouse is going to be willing to move along with them. And it's, it can be very hard and disruptive to marriage when the spouse can't work or does only for three years, and you know, moving on. And so it really takes a special person to forsake their own career progression, in order to follow and support that military member. And so holding down the fort is, you know, kind of that ancillary job for the spouse of the military member, and for someone who wants to have a career and has the opportunities, that decision point comes at certain point, like you want to stay in or get out because I don't want to keep moving. And so I saw that on Guam a lot is that servicemembers didn't want to move to Guam because the spouses couldn't work. And so then we lose, we lost a lot of, especially submarine train folks, there's because tours on Guam were inevitable. And then the spouse has didn't want to go and sit on an island where they couldn't work in progress in their own careers. And so it really was eye opening. And some of these challenges that leadership maybe doesn't know about, because their spouses didn't work and didn't need to work or chose not to work. And so some of the things that we all know to be true and relates to retention. And so trying to highlight those and find solutions, whether they're to a job, they can work from home now or take with them wherever they go, or entrepreneurship is such a great way to kind of flatten the curve and the difficult Enos of transport jobs when you have to move around. Yeah, I have

Jen Amos: 37:25

a friend who runs this organization that helps military spouses find remote employment. And before the pandemic, it was a really difficult task. You know, she had to find the right companies to partner with and, and everything. But then once once we were in quarantine, once we had stay at home orders, essentially, all of a sudden, the remote work exploded. And I know Jenny Lynn, when you first started working your job, you had no idea that you were going to be working as an outreach coordinator virtually for essentially the entirety of your career so far, all of

: 38:00

it. Every single day of outreach I've done has been remote. Yeah, because California was closed down for so long.

Jen Amos: 38:10

Yeah. Yeah.

: 38:12

It's, it's great to see how the shift and what people value and that it can be done and trying to make that work. I think it really moved the needle in terms of trying to find remote work, especially for spouses who are moving around and because if you never say the spouse isn't happy, no one's happy, and the service member will leave and we don't want that. And so it's a comes with a unit. It's a family unit that we know is so important and critical for readiness, and anything we can always do to help with improve that readiness so we can gain the best top talent and make it a family effort is so important. Absolutely.

Jen Amos: 38:53

So in addition to highlighting the importance of putting military families first and as a way to increase and maintain service member retention, I wanted to touch upon more about your experience Amy as a woman in the service, because here I am referring back to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, because that's where my headspace is right now, a couple years ago, they recently released the movie Captain Marvel. And it was like such a big deal, because it was like the first like female veteran that is in the Marvel Universe. However, you have been serving as a female service member for the last 30 years. And so I know that you have seen all sorts of things in the military. I imagine you had been in many spaces where maybe you were like the only woman but I know that a lot has changed and from our conversation in your pre interview, you're very optimistic about the opportunities for women in the military today. Well, I

: 39:48

can tell you that when I attended the joint women's leadership symposium a couple of weeks ago in Norfolk, Virginia, I was so blown away by there was about 900, almost 1000 Women in uniform. And it just made my heart sore because being able to see all those women come together from across the country and around the world, actually, we had women there from all over bases and stations as far away as Germany and Hawaii and Guam, so that they would come there to learn the mentor and mentor others and share experiences. So we can thrive in this environment. And it's not easy. The military is really not meant for, I would say it's a machine that's not meant for women and lifestyle, per se. So there's always an uphill challenge and women have been serving patiently and quietly and diligently and successfully for so many years. I mentioned my grandmother was an Army nurse in World War Two, and serving, caring for those wounded on the battlefield and Guam and TaiPan. And some of the stories that stayed with her, and that shaped her life really shaped my life. And that was what inspired me to join. But in the reality of today's world is that women serving in the military still face appeal challenges because of policy or practice, or just that legacy mindset that women don't belong in the military, or you're not good enough, or you're shouldn't be here. And so I've heard it all, and I've experienced it all. And so being able to just shrug it off, and, you know, really try to remember the calling and you know, having the opportunity to be a public affairs or comm enlisted combat correspondent. And the thing that I always tried to do was to shaping these stories and tell the good news about our military always gave me hope. And if I could make someone's day, that's what I was out to do. And really to always remember share the courage it takes to serve whether man or woman, the courage it takes to put on a uniform, get up, step off go in harm's way, was really a calling for me and being able to tell those stories, I can tell you, there's been stories where I've covered a story about a marine doing something on the job and back in the old newspaper days, and they would send the newspaper clipping back to their home to mom, mom would have that article posted on their frigerator for 10 years. And they would tell me, my mom still has that article that you did about me. And so as you know, if I could make moms and dads proud by doing writing a story and taking a photo of a marine or soldier, sailor airman, the knots my calling and that's my job, regardless of what other people are saying or doing about being in the military, because I know that those matter. And I think there's been a huge shift in mindset, especially in the last 10 years or so, or at least since Iraq and Afghanistan where women were being killed. And so I'll tell you that when Megan McClung major Megan McClung was killed in combat in December 2006, in Iraq, that really awakened the reality that women are prepared and know the risk when they go into combat zones. And that if she's willing to do that, then it is not enough to be accepted into the, you know, the club, the secret handshake and be willing to serve. And so it did it has. And I can tell you that even as recent as last year, it's been almost a year now or two female Marines were killed in Afghanistan at the airport, airport. And so, while tragic, as tragic as male Marines dying, but the we've come to accept that as if America said, Well, we're not ready for women to die in combat. But I think now we've really accepted that if they're willing to Kitt up and step off and go on ship serve as aircraft, pilots should not be enough and be proof enough that we're willing to take that risk. And so by that alone, I think that that has some mindsets from that old legacy mindset that you don't belong here. So I've seen great changes and I'm, I'm so hopeful there's women coming up behind us, my main mission in life is to open doors, create opportunities for women in the military, veterans who want to become authors or step into you know, get a master's degree and work in media or journalism and create those connections for people.

: 44:28

That's awesome. You know, it's fascinating. You talk about this legacy mindset. I am now in my second world war two era, historical fiction book of the summer, both about females in combat during World War Two in Russia. And the current book I'm reading it's fascinating because this Russian female sniper and it's, it's based on real people, that is historical fiction. So obviously, some of the things are made up, but most of it is, is really based on things that actually happen. And she comes to America on a goodwill tour in hopes of America giving aid and putting in the, you know, another front in Eastern Europe to deter the Germans during World War Two. And the way that it is written about how the American press and like the American like Washington, DC, ladies, like, welcomed and I put that in air quotes for our listeners who can't see my fingers, like welcomed her is fascinating. And it just speaks so much to like, the legacy we've had here in the United States is that women stay home and support. And that is our legacy. As a military family, we stay home and support we're holding down the fort at home, you know those things. And in reading this book it is it's because most of it is from inside the mind of the female sniper. And she's looking at at us like the Americans going, why don't they get it? Like, you know, and there's this scene I just read last night where she'd gone to like this shooting club, and it was this old boys club, and they gave her a rifle. And like she said up against these 10 men in this rifle club and beat every one of them, you know, 10 bull's eyes and three minutes. But it wasn't until she proved that she could do it that like she was welcomed as a soldier into that group. She'd been this very othered. You know, I look at her she's so cute in her dress in her dress uniform, like over here trying to tell us about war. And it's been fascinating to read. And then to think about, like, I know, so many women in the military, and so many that have been the first at whatever they do. And one of my favorites, you know, her like retirement speech was, it's great that I was the first XYZ I'd really like for there not to be any more first. And I just thought, you know, man, that's really awesome. And yet, you know, just the other day, the first blue angel pilot, you know, the first female Blue Angel pilot, and I was like, Oh my gosh, really, we hadn't had that yet. Like, there's still a part of me even that I'm like, Oh, we've made such strides. And also wow, like, we're still having the first so, you know, I mean, I'm with you. I've seen a lot of change. In the 15 years, I've been married into this lifestyle, and I hope, you know, to continue to see change. And I hope you know, we have an episode. Gosh, that came out. I don't know what season three, Jen with Misty Flynn, who's MasterChef? You know, she is a friend of mine. And we had a very candid conversation about the relationship between female spouses and female servicemembers, because that's part of what helps change this too. You know, and I think that's a conversation worth revisiting. For folks that haven't listened to it, it's, you know, something that's going to help move the needle forward and make, you know, Department of Defense, the ground for which we show everyone else the the advances that can be made, you know, that that we can all be a very diverse and inclusive culture.

: 48:07

Yeah, oh, I love that, especially with the the spouses and women in service, you know, there's been this sort of two groups that never intersected. And I've always tried, you know, or I've always wanted to be friends with spouses, because I didn't really have a lot of female friends in the network wherever I was stationed. And so kind of breaking into that group, or being as a friendly, you know, is hard, but I think it takes some work on both both ends as well to make a good, solid unit come together where people feel comfortable with that. But, you know, I tell you, so in the development of female engagement teams, a lot of people maybe don't know that story were in Iraq and Afghanistan, where we needed women to do searching of other women of the Iraqi women and Afghan women and kind of being able to get together with them. We're on patrol, like, so we gathered some women, Marines to go on patrol with the Marines, male Marines, to talk to the women because usually the women know where the bad guys are the women know where the things are. And so they developed this concept of female engagement teams, which led to this cultural support teams were now in special forces. This is like a standard. And so the biggest things we've learned about integrating women into our combat operations and our overall operations, while we're out there is that women play a key role in combat, whether it's engaging with other women. And a good friend of mine, Julia Watson, a marine Master Sergeant, she gave a TED Talk speech about why women in war matter and so I don't think there's going backwards right. So the genies out of the bottle, we can't put that back in and so I think we're gonna see more to come and as women reach higher ranks and more policy makers out there at that highest levels We're going to, we're going to see more awareness and moving the needle to help make it a place where women can, can serve and serve successfully. But they don't need to punch out after 10 years and, you know, get discouraged or distracted. And if they can also build some tools to roll with the punches and put things in perspective, I definitely see a longer longevity of careers for women, they can just stick it out long enough to get to reach those ranks, which we've seen now, especially in the Navy and the Army. It's wonderful. And the Air Force to to see some of these women reach three star four star or no senior enlisted leaders like in the Air Force, and it's just really great to see.

Jen Amos: 50:43

Yeah, it's very inspiring. I think about you know, the work that I do with Scott and our team. And we primarily talk to like male veterans, which, you know, it is what it is, but it is always very exciting when we're able to talk to a female veteran. It's just very refreshing and makes me very optimistic for the military. Real quick, just a shout out to Misty Flynn. She was episode 78, which is wow, that was like almost what that was like, well over a year ago is February 2021. But that one was titled encouraging female servicemembers and military spouses to connect on shared challenges with Misty flan. So shout out to Misty for that. And I'm curious, Amy, if you had a mantra on what to tell yourself, if ever you were kind of faced with being othered? Or is it kind of like, you just you just, you've just kind of gotten this like second nature habit to brush it off? Now, I'm curious if you have any strategies for that, or, you know, like I said, if you just kind of brush it off?

: 51:38

Well, you know, framing is everything and how to succeed in the military lifestyle. And there's been so many ups and downs and second guessing, and did I do the right thing, and I want to push the needle, I want to do more, I want to get this done. And being a doer, you know, I do have one quote, that I often refer to is risking is always better than regretting. And so taking some risks to push the envelope, as they say, or take a risk, because you do not want to live with regret and saying I wished I could have I should have done this. What if I had turned out differently. So I've always been a risk taker. And I it's always paid off. And you know, one thing in the military, they say, Don't ever volunteer for anything. But I've done the exact opposite. I volunteer for everything. And usually, it's something really cool or I can carve out my own path. And it ends up being really fun or an exciting opportunity. And so just taking those risks in order to get the reward. I always just recommend people take a chance, believe in yourself most importantly, and bet on yourself. 100% of the time. So risking is always better than regretting. No regrets in life. Right. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 53:04

I love that. It's better to say, oops, than, Oh, I wish, right. It's like, you know, one of my favorite phrases for myself is AI is I always like to say, Well, so far so good. Like that's usually what I go with. And I just kind of focus on failing forward and doing things trial and error and like just making mistakes and seeing how that could be really fruitful. And so I love that for you. It's like, hey, any moment where you know, it's risky, you lean into it, because like you mentioned, it almost always is gratifying at the end and rewarding at the end. Jaylen just curious if you had any thoughts?

: 53:38

Well, as we've discussed many times, I'm pretty risk averse. So I'm not sure. I err on the side of caution though. I do love the reframe of I'd rather you know risk than regret. That's a great reframe for me. And for people like me who were like, Oh, no about that. I would actually rather step out and do the thing, then wonder how it would have gone or if it would have gone? So thanks for that, Amy.

: 54:08

Well, you know, what the taking a risk on say the book putting together this book. I'm not an author, I barely even read books for I'm not necessarily a reader. So me putting together a book was the furthest thing from my mind. But I said, what if no one buys it? And that was a very good possibility. No one's gonna want to buy this. That's the first thing to like, convince myself not to do this thing. Not together this book. But so what if people actually wanted to see this and wanted to buy it and what took comfort and some reassurance from it? And so that's what really pulled me into it. And so I took a risk. And luckily, people have been very appreciative and supportive of it. And so for that, I'm thankful and so I wouldn't live with it. Well, like Buddha would have showed up or I wished I would have and so taking that risk and taking that leap of faith I just knew that somebody could gain comfort and appreciate it. And so I encourage people out there, if you're thinking about doing something, if you're kind of want to do a thing, take a risk and pursue it take action. And because this is this is all we've got right here in life. So don't live with the regret. And if you can change someone's day by doing something, follow your heart. Really listen, listen to your heart. What is it telling you to do and take that action?

Jen Amos: 55:31

Well, Amy, thank you, you know, thank you for everything that you do for our military community, you are an award winning military journalist for a reason. And why don't you let our listeners know if they want to learn more about the book heroes live here? Or they want to reach out to directly how can they do that?

: 55:50

Well, certainly, I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, and Instagram and Facebook, Twitter. But if people want to learn more about the book called Heroes live here, they can go to the website heroes live here.com, you can follow our Instagram page and our Facebook page heroes live here. And I just love to connect with other people. If there's people out there who might want to learn more about the book business or get connected with veteran authors or learn some things just follow along and see how I'm doing my media or engagements. And I'm doing a lot of veteran talks to have been invited to come and speak to veterans groups, which I'm always happy to do to talk about this process. And for the research that went involved with Camp Pendleton, especially in San Diego area more than happy to share that but love to connect with anyone out there. Appreciate the opportunity. It's been so great to connect with you ladies today. And holding down the fort. It's wonderful, really makes my heart sing knowing that we've got we've got ladies out there like you who are really driving the conversation, keeping the conversation going with these important topics. So thank you for having me. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 57:03

thank you, Amy. You are incredible, inspirational, aspirational as well, I think, and I think this just creates. I hope that in sharing your story and you showing up as you are our listeners will just have one more amazing example as to why not that this is a recruiting ad in any way. But why it is a great opportunity to join the military and serve for our country. Thank you, Amy, so much for your time and genuine thank you for CO hosting with me as always any closing thoughts? Awesome. All right. Well, with that said thank you to our listeners for joining us if you want to get a hold of Amy we will have all of our contact information in the show notes as well as her book heroes live here and how you can get a hold of that yourself. We hope you got a lot out of this conversation and we will chat with you in the next episode. Till next time